Cars carrying their original Jensen shell will always be more highly valued than ones reshelled into an Alpine shell.
Like it or not, that is how it is.
I don't care too much what people do to their Tigers as long as if they sell them they are honest about it's history so the buyer knows what he is looking at and can weigh up what the car is worth to them.
We can't stop people swapping VINs and JALs if they want to and again, if they're honest about it if they sell the car, I won't lose sleep over it.
If someone is selling a car as original, and isn't, then that's where the club comes into it to ensure that any potential owners, if they ask, know what they are looking at and can weigh up what the car is worth to them.
That is ofcourse if anyone knows if it's been reshelled.
I believe that my Tiger is original but if I discovered that it wasn't, I wouldn't be very pleased and so wouldn't want that to happen to anyone else.
TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.
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Red Race Tiger
Martin,
Agree 100%, re-shelled Tiger's should be declared AS reshelled. I have never not once said otherwise throughout my posts.
But a re-shelled Tiger using a shell from which it fully derived from ie an Alpine is no less a Tiger as long as it has been re-shelled directly from one shell to another carrying over EVERY body mod that the "JENSON" built car had, it's no more than they did in the day and no less than should be required today.
And clearly as it is no longer an Alpine shell, it carries over the Tiger Vin and is declared as such.
There are an awlful lot of clever people out there who have done this for years and i'd bet my pension on it that there are indeed so called ALGERS within the TAC that have been done to such a high standard of workmanship you couldn't tell..... it's time to re-evaluate.
Agree 100%, re-shelled Tiger's should be declared AS reshelled. I have never not once said otherwise throughout my posts.
But a re-shelled Tiger using a shell from which it fully derived from ie an Alpine is no less a Tiger as long as it has been re-shelled directly from one shell to another carrying over EVERY body mod that the "JENSON" built car had, it's no more than they did in the day and no less than should be required today.
And clearly as it is no longer an Alpine shell, it carries over the Tiger Vin and is declared as such.
There are an awlful lot of clever people out there who have done this for years and i'd bet my pension on it that there are indeed so called ALGERS within the TAC that have been done to such a high standard of workmanship you couldn't tell..... it's time to re-evaluate.
Hi Martin,martin172 wrote:Cars carrying their original Jensen shell will always be more highly valued than ones reshelled into an Alpine shell.
Like it or not, that is how it is.
I agree 100% with what you've written and until people stop trying to pass off Alpine conversions as Tigers, the unsuspecting run the risk of picking up a fake. That is why I see it as unnecessary that the Tiger community as a whole doesn't need more categories to allow re-shells to be accepted as originals. You will just have many unhappy owners of Alpine conversions as somewhere along the line the truth will be shaded. I'm sure every Tiger owner or prospective owner would choose an original any day over a fake. Until the people pushing for more flexibility can come up with a viable and logical option in regards to what is acceptable, there is only one ruling.
Regards, Robin.
Last edited by gtsmrt on Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
RRT,Red Race Tiger wrote: Agree 100%, re-shelled Tiger's should be declared AS reshelled.
Seriously, how can you say that you agree with Martin's post when you would re-body a Tiger with an Alpine shell and then swap the id tags.
The only thing you have agree upon is that you say you would declare it?? In regards to these so called clever people, by undertaking such a high level of conversion makes it more obvious of what it is not. I would like for you to explain your logic how an Alpine converted outside Jensen can ever be a Tiger?Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Reverting back to the insults again are we!! water off a ducks back, but remember I am not the only reader/subscriber to this forum.Red Race Tiger wrote:NOT ONE person from the UK has objected on this forum to the option of RE-shelling/Re-Bodying NOT ONE, what does that tell you?
Apart from TWO who live on the other side of the globe who keep coming up with the same " UP IN ARM'S" mantra's there are no other OBJECTION'S.....
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
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Red Race Tiger
The only issue i can see here are those that refuse to open their eye's to reality, wot's gone on in the past proberbly going now and will definitely continue on in the future,
It's clear that the two stelwarts of the marque downunder wish to align themselves to the Non Flexibility of the U S TAC, Fine. Where as here in the UK where the cars were acually built i firmly believe we are more liberal and sympathetic to the issue's raised of a replacement body when the original is just way behond help. And that's all i've said.
I do also feel that being down there that you may be a little isolated and out of the loop.
The car that started this thread B947????'s only realistic chance of seeing the road again would be a re-shell and it was to that vehicle ( AND OTHER'S) i was suggesting some form of flexibilty ie, being declared as a "Re-Shell" but still being allowed to retain it's Tiger ID
The fact that it's new owner? cannot BUY a replacemnet "Tiger" shell and that he/she has no other option open but to use an Alpine body makes the point, and insisting that it carries an Alpine Vin when it clearly is no longer an Alpine is complete nonsense. That would only serve for more finger pointing.
The thought of someone mocking up a Tiger from a pile of bit's collected over a period clearly isn't a Tiger and doesn't deserve to be titled as such, that is an Alpine V8, BUT a direct re-shell side by side IS a Tiger, although not one assembled by Jenson. But in reality who care's? surley it's the build quality and attention to detail that counts?
I think it's proberbly a safe bet now to say that all the best "Tiger" barn find's have been found? and all that's likely to come forward in the future will be similar to the B947....car, so it's either let them go or a re-shell. It's not for any of us to look down our noses pointing finger's if somone's willing to take it on and save any particular car at huge expense and hardly for profit.
The opposite, it should be applauded.
Regading my Bhaa Bhaa jibe, very sorry.....truely no offense intended, just my attempt to keep this "at times" heated debate lighthearted
It's clear that the two stelwarts of the marque downunder wish to align themselves to the Non Flexibility of the U S TAC, Fine. Where as here in the UK where the cars were acually built i firmly believe we are more liberal and sympathetic to the issue's raised of a replacement body when the original is just way behond help. And that's all i've said.
I do also feel that being down there that you may be a little isolated and out of the loop.
The car that started this thread B947????'s only realistic chance of seeing the road again would be a re-shell and it was to that vehicle ( AND OTHER'S) i was suggesting some form of flexibilty ie, being declared as a "Re-Shell" but still being allowed to retain it's Tiger ID
The fact that it's new owner? cannot BUY a replacemnet "Tiger" shell and that he/she has no other option open but to use an Alpine body makes the point, and insisting that it carries an Alpine Vin when it clearly is no longer an Alpine is complete nonsense. That would only serve for more finger pointing.
The thought of someone mocking up a Tiger from a pile of bit's collected over a period clearly isn't a Tiger and doesn't deserve to be titled as such, that is an Alpine V8, BUT a direct re-shell side by side IS a Tiger, although not one assembled by Jenson. But in reality who care's? surley it's the build quality and attention to detail that counts?
I think it's proberbly a safe bet now to say that all the best "Tiger" barn find's have been found? and all that's likely to come forward in the future will be similar to the B947....car, so it's either let them go or a re-shell. It's not for any of us to look down our noses pointing finger's if somone's willing to take it on and save any particular car at huge expense and hardly for profit.
The opposite, it should be applauded.
Regading my Bhaa Bhaa jibe, very sorry.....truely no offense intended, just my attempt to keep this "at times" heated debate lighthearted
My comments refer only to Tigers residing in the UK.
Agree but with reservations (see below).
Disagree.
Totally disagree. This where you are completely incorrect, in my opinion.
RRT, you are fixated on bodyshells when you should be looking at the CARS!
You are looking at this from the viewpoint of the scrapped Tiger having a “new” replacement Alpine bodyshell and then putting the Tiger's chassis number, JAL plate on it.
The Alpine CAR is the one receiving the Tiger's mechanicals etc and it has its own unique chassis number. It is NOT just a convenient replacement bodyshell for the Tiger.
With regard to true Heritage shells:
The MGB started production in 1962.
The enduring popularity of the MGB led to it becoming the best-supported classic car of all when it came to spares, and the first to have a series-produced replacement bodyshell, launched by British Motor Heritage in 1988, some 26 years after production started. That is a Heritage bodyshell for the MGB.
The Tiger has never had such a heritage bodyshell produced.
Example:
(A) Tiger (Jensen), chassis number B947****
(B) Alpine (Ryton) chassis number 94*****
Let's assume that the Tiger (A) is a total rusted wreck and uneconomically repairable but it is fine mechanically.
One solution would be to purchase an Alpine (B) which is in excellent bodily condition, then after modifications, transfer the Tiger's mechanicals to the Alpine.
So what do we have now?
(a) We have a scrapped Tiger chassis. I am assuming that the Tiger remains have been taken to a registered dismantler such as FMS Recovery:
http://fmsrecovery.co.uk/faq.php
Tiger A's identity is then checked and DVLA informed that the vehicle has been scrapped.
(b) We also have Alpine (B) with a much larger engine than original plus Tiger mechanicals.
In my opinion, the next step is to inform your insurance company and DVLA of the changes to the Alpine. It may be possible to re-register the car as an Alpine V8.
On this subject, I happen to know several top-quality Alpine V8s, which their owners are perfectly open about. I feel that these particular cars are just as valuable as genuine Tigers. In one exceptional case, possibly even more so.
As Tim and others mentioned much earlier in this thread:
Agree, but the bodyshells were not the same.The Tiger derived directly from the Alpine, No Alpine No Tiger. Period.
Agree.I haven't AS YET re-shelled a Tiger with an Alpine body but faced with a rotten Tiger i wouldn't have a second thought about doing it. A 100% better car would emerge rather than a festering pile of rust that personally i wouldn't want to put my name too. It wouldn't be done for financial gain, rather for the love of the car.
Thankfully my chassis isn't heavily rusted, but if as a result of an accident that resulted in it needing a replacement body it would be a rust free Heritage Alpine i'd choose rather than trying to repair a badly bent OR corroded body. Without a doubt.
Agree but with reservations (see below).
And as for that continuing rant about swapping Vin's....that's no more than you would do as an MG owner with a heritage shell. SWAP VIN'S.
Disagree.
And clearly as it is no longer an Alpine shell, it carries over the Tiger Vin and is declared as such.
Totally disagree. This where you are completely incorrect, in my opinion.
RRT, you are fixated on bodyshells when you should be looking at the CARS!
You are looking at this from the viewpoint of the scrapped Tiger having a “new” replacement Alpine bodyshell and then putting the Tiger's chassis number, JAL plate on it.
The Alpine CAR is the one receiving the Tiger's mechanicals etc and it has its own unique chassis number. It is NOT just a convenient replacement bodyshell for the Tiger.
With regard to true Heritage shells:
The MGB started production in 1962.
The enduring popularity of the MGB led to it becoming the best-supported classic car of all when it came to spares, and the first to have a series-produced replacement bodyshell, launched by British Motor Heritage in 1988, some 26 years after production started. That is a Heritage bodyshell for the MGB.
The Tiger has never had such a heritage bodyshell produced.
Example:
(A) Tiger (Jensen), chassis number B947****
(B) Alpine (Ryton) chassis number 94*****
Let's assume that the Tiger (A) is a total rusted wreck and uneconomically repairable but it is fine mechanically.
One solution would be to purchase an Alpine (B) which is in excellent bodily condition, then after modifications, transfer the Tiger's mechanicals to the Alpine.
So what do we have now?
(a) We have a scrapped Tiger chassis. I am assuming that the Tiger remains have been taken to a registered dismantler such as FMS Recovery:
http://fmsrecovery.co.uk/faq.php
Tiger A's identity is then checked and DVLA informed that the vehicle has been scrapped.
(b) We also have Alpine (B) with a much larger engine than original plus Tiger mechanicals.
In my opinion, the next step is to inform your insurance company and DVLA of the changes to the Alpine. It may be possible to re-register the car as an Alpine V8.
On this subject, I happen to know several top-quality Alpine V8s, which their owners are perfectly open about. I feel that these particular cars are just as valuable as genuine Tigers. In one exceptional case, possibly even more so.
As Tim and others mentioned much earlier in this thread:
Left the factory as an Alpine, Alpine ID. Left the factory as a Tiger, Tiger ID.
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Red Race Tiger
I doubt that somehow,
I'm not fixated on bodies, or the car. I'm just trying to point out that carrying out a reshell to ANY given classic vehicle is quite doable and acceptable.
And this company FMS Recovery? your talking about modern day worthless scrap car's and recycling.....it's hardly the same is it?
MGB's were built by British Leyland which was as we know a state owned company, upon privitisation MG went on for a number of years and untimately failed...end of MG
So explain to me exactly how these Heritage bodies can be sanctioned? By whom? The parent companies long gone so how is it that they can legally be RE-Shelled and our cars cant?
That's no different then me and some of my mates getting together and knocking up some Sunbeam Bodies down the shed? Pointless debate.
Ok, take that one step further there.....
If say for instance there was a "HERITAGE" body available for the Alpine/Tiger car that was santioned but that it was only made as an Alpine (As Original) and the Tiger pieces came seperate and you/we had to modify them ourselves? No different to the Jenson process is it?
You can legally buy bodies for MG's, Mini's, Cobra's, WW2 Jeeps etc etc etc
Why should this model be so different.
I'm not fixated on bodies, or the car. I'm just trying to point out that carrying out a reshell to ANY given classic vehicle is quite doable and acceptable.
And this company FMS Recovery? your talking about modern day worthless scrap car's and recycling.....it's hardly the same is it?
MGB's were built by British Leyland which was as we know a state owned company, upon privitisation MG went on for a number of years and untimately failed...end of MG
So explain to me exactly how these Heritage bodies can be sanctioned? By whom? The parent companies long gone so how is it that they can legally be RE-Shelled and our cars cant?
That's no different then me and some of my mates getting together and knocking up some Sunbeam Bodies down the shed? Pointless debate.
Ok, take that one step further there.....
If say for instance there was a "HERITAGE" body available for the Alpine/Tiger car that was santioned but that it was only made as an Alpine (As Original) and the Tiger pieces came seperate and you/we had to modify them ourselves? No different to the Jenson process is it?
You can legally buy bodies for MG's, Mini's, Cobra's, WW2 Jeeps etc etc etc
Why should this model be so different.
Did you actually bother reading and inwardly digesting my post?And this company FMS Recovery? your talking about modern day worthless scrap car's and recycling.....it's hardly the same is it?
Judging by your reply, the answer is probably no.
I was making the point that the rotten chassis belonging to Tiger (A) was scrapped.
That car's ID was recorded by the registered dismantler and DVLA informed. The Tiger then ceased to exist.
What on earth has your reference to modern day cars got to do with anything at all and my point in particular?
A scrapped car is a scrapped car regardless of how old it is.
I have made my points perfectly clearly. Perhaps others on this forum are better able to understand them. I have nothing further to add.
constructive that is -
Red Race Tiger
V8 Burble,
Yes i did read your post, all of it thankyou.
From what i can gather you re-shelled a Tiger with an Alpine doner shell and chose to surrender the Tiger ID? to the scrap dealer who informed DVLA of it's demise
The fact that you chose to do it that way by sacrificing the Tiger ID for the Alpine's was your choice, some on here would say you did the right thing, personally i'd say you surrendered a perfectly legitimate Tiger ID that could have been declared as a re-bodied Tiger. No fraud there.
I presume before scrapping the Tiger you cut out all the Jenson specific item's and welded them into the Alpine? which at that point the Alpine ceased to be an Alpine and became a Tiger shell, given not NEW or Jenson constructed but still to Tiger spec, so why then give it an Alpine Vin? That makes 100% no sense to me.
We have two differing opinion's, not saying i'm right, not saying your wrong either. Difference of opinion.
To me simply putting all the mechanical's from one rotten car into a rust free donor shell is still the same car, it's JUST a shell change. To you it's a crime.
If your personally happy with your Alpine V8 that's great, however YOUR choice may not be everyone elses.
There was never such thing as an Alpine V8 so why muddy the waters further? All i've ever said within my post's is that a re-shelled/re-bodied Tiger should be declared as such and should be allowed to carry it's Vin. As a Tiger, because that's the car it represents. Not a replica because other than the body change it's still the SAME car.
Final Question,
How can Bodyshop's be sanctioned to carry out a shell change's? The original body has a HISTORY which clearly is left behind when the vehicle begin's again with a NEW body.....
We're never going to agree.
Yes i did read your post, all of it thankyou.
From what i can gather you re-shelled a Tiger with an Alpine doner shell and chose to surrender the Tiger ID? to the scrap dealer who informed DVLA of it's demise
The fact that you chose to do it that way by sacrificing the Tiger ID for the Alpine's was your choice, some on here would say you did the right thing, personally i'd say you surrendered a perfectly legitimate Tiger ID that could have been declared as a re-bodied Tiger. No fraud there.
I presume before scrapping the Tiger you cut out all the Jenson specific item's and welded them into the Alpine? which at that point the Alpine ceased to be an Alpine and became a Tiger shell, given not NEW or Jenson constructed but still to Tiger spec, so why then give it an Alpine Vin? That makes 100% no sense to me.
We have two differing opinion's, not saying i'm right, not saying your wrong either. Difference of opinion.
To me simply putting all the mechanical's from one rotten car into a rust free donor shell is still the same car, it's JUST a shell change. To you it's a crime.
If your personally happy with your Alpine V8 that's great, however YOUR choice may not be everyone elses.
There was never such thing as an Alpine V8 so why muddy the waters further? All i've ever said within my post's is that a re-shelled/re-bodied Tiger should be declared as such and should be allowed to carry it's Vin. As a Tiger, because that's the car it represents. Not a replica because other than the body change it's still the SAME car.
Final Question,
How can Bodyshop's be sanctioned to carry out a shell change's? The original body has a HISTORY which clearly is left behind when the vehicle begin's again with a NEW body.....
We're never going to agree.