Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

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garyv8tiger
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Post by garyv8tiger » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:12 am

:?

i think the main issue on reshells ,algers or whatever name you want to call them is.

you dont want to be sold a reshell a top dollar without knowing as it will always affect the final value(but why should it?) .i think people who have owned a few tigers would not have any issues with a reshell .i wouldnt have an issue if the price was right .

1st time owners will always want a genuine 1 as that will be what they have read .

then there are people with genuine tigers that dont want to others passing off reshelled cars along side theres after they may have spent lots of time and money on theres .mainly the tiger police and the owners out there that are better than the rest of us . :?

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:48 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:But switching Vin's and leaving the Alpine's history behind in my mind has to be the correct way, as it's no longer an ALPINE it's a Tiger with the same very basic mod's that Jenson performed.


If the Reshell has been carried out to such a level that it includes 100% of all the body mod's just as Jenson did then it's a reshelled Tiger and should be "Honestly" declared so BUT should be allowed to carry the Tiger Vin as that is NOW what the car represents, a reshelled Alpine into a Tiger is now obviously not an Alpine.

I do realise that one man's conversion is another man's bodge up but i really do think that similar to TAC there should be scope for very authentic rebodied Tiger's to have their own place without the stigma associated otherwise there will always be this hush hush see no, hear no, speak no attitude.
I'm sorry Paul, but I disagree. As an example, if you have a stock standard 3 or 5 series BMW and you swap M3/M5 running gear it still does not make the car an M3/M5. Sure it makes all the right sounds, but still doesn't make it a factory special vehicle. Even using your examples from earlier is no different. I don't think there is any secret society, we just want an Alpine conversion called exactly that and not something is isn't.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:21 am

Robin,

As an M3 owner if i trashed that i'd re-shell it with a 320 :lol: :lol:

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:40 am

Only joking there.....

666
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Post by 666 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Just thought a Happy New Year message to all might not go amiss at this point as Theseus' Parodox ineviteably rumbles on into 2012.

Have a safe one everyone, and thank you for the entertainment in 2011!

David Galloway, Bermuda

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:55 pm

Yes thanks all for the at times "Heated" debate.

All the very best to you all in 2012 :wink:

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gvickery
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Post by gvickery » Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:38 pm

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL USERS OF THIS FORUM

Not enough contributors / contributions folk. The thread has been viewed 3500+ times and drawn contributions from just 13 of us, only half coming from STOC members. The thread may be 'heated' but it won't take us too far unless a bunch of our 'viewers' have a crack at penning a comment. It only needs to convey what you think; it doesn't have to be a debate killing argument.

Go on give it a go, else we will have to pull its 'sticky' status.

Graham
STOC Editor

garyv8tiger
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HAPPY NEW YEAR

Post by garyv8tiger » Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:23 am

yes happy new year and lets hope 2012 brings us lots more algers .sorry reshells :mrgreen:

oh and i hope dean manages to get his scooter going faster by fitting the 24 volt battery he ordered of ebay earlier today . :mrgreen:

Ash
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Post by Ash » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:22 pm

gvickery wrote:HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL USERS OF THIS FORUM

Not enough contributors / contributions folk. The thread has been viewed 3500+ times and drawn contributions from just 13 of us, only half coming from STOC members. The thread may be 'heated' but it won't take us too far unless a bunch of our 'viewers' have a crack at penning a comment. It only needs to convey what you think; it doesn't have to be a debate killing argument.

Go on give it a go, else we will have to pull its 'sticky' status.

Graham
STOC Editor
Happy New Year all.

This should have Sticky status as it is definately a "sticky subject"!

Lots of interest but people may be afraid to air their own personal views in fear of what others may think of them and their cars? :?:

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:52 pm

Happy New Year.

If a reshell passed a TAC would it be classed as a genuine Tiger and then the disclosure made, would it then still be thought of as a Tiger.

But how much of the original Tiger would need to be kept.

Wouldnt it make sense that to be considered a Tiger it would have to have certain panels, lack of certain things, be bodied correctley and use certain techniques. If it is then rebodied to those guidlines it would be deemed a Tiger, more Tigers are saved (alas at the expense of an Alpine).

I thinks there should be a difference between a reshell and Alpines with V8s. The term Alger unfortunately covers both.

Good health to you.

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:21 pm

Yes i agree,

Alpines with V8's is one thingy, a reshelled Tiger is something else.

Said it once, say it again.....No Alpine, No Tiger.

I'm standing back and reading now, as i think my humble opinion is clear here. It's way overdue for other's to step forward and have a say as we all know they are out there.

But, faced with a trashed or rotten Tiger :?: and there was an RUST free Alpine shell available wot would YOU do??

Answers on a postcard please to WWW.RESHELLED.CO.UK

:wink:

Brad1380
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Post by Brad1380 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:27 pm

Well i've been staying out of this one as it seems to be the old hands having a dispute, but what the hell.
From my experience with classics, if there is a model based on the standard one which commands a premium there will always be someone trying to tart up an Alpine, Escort, Mini or whatever to take advantage of the naive & make a quick buck.
A factory car will always be a factory car, a reshell will be just that & the price / seller should reflect the fact that it is a non original, let the buyer decide if it is worth the money.
1966 Sunbeam Tiger Mk1a

JAYANDSHEL
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Post by JAYANDSHEL » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:17 am

Question
An original genuine tiger that has been restored to show winning factory correct concours condition or a perfect, documented low millage unrestored car to the same standard, which would command the higher selling price

Answer
In my opinion (please note the start of this answer)I think the low mileage original car is worth more which therefore says to me people like their cars to be as original factory standard if they are paying top dollar.Therefor the key is PRICE must always reflect what has happened to the car in the past and I do think all Tiger IDs must be preserved even at the cost of an Alpine Shell.

Jason

michael-king
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Post by michael-king » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:56 am

JAYANDSHEL wrote:Question
An original genuine tiger that has been restored to show winning factory correct concours condition or a perfect, documented low millage unrestored car to the same standard, which would command the higher selling price

Answer
In my opinion (please note the start of this answer)I think the low mileage original car is worth more which therefore says to me people like their cars to be as original factory standard if they are paying top dollar.Therefor the key is PRICE must always reflect what has happened to the car in the past and I do think all Tiger IDs must be preserved even at the cost of an Alpine Shell.

Jason
Jason,

I can somewhat agree with you in what you have said.. but depends how well the original car has survived. However the one thing i think that is being mixed up in this thread and at the cost of the agrument is PRIVE vs REPRESENTATION.

Sure price is what influences some of this stuff.. but the real issue is about history.. if a car has its bits swapped into another car.. the other car is still the rightful identity.. i reiterate.. the only reason people swap tags is to decieve.. and what you say seems you would agree..

I'm just asking we remove value out of the argument as there are certain narrow minded people who the latch onto that and contend the only reaason people dont like VIN swapping is they are trying to preserve/increase the value of their cars.. i think its not about that.. its about actually representing the cars they are.

To those who still think that swapping vins is acceptable.. the LeMans Tigers (or Listers as they are reffered to often) they are built on S3 Alpines.. if you wrote one off completly (may that never happen!) If you got another S3 performed all the same mods, crafted a new alloy fastback/rear section on and swap the VIN's.. that is NOT the car that ran at LM.. its a recreation of that car with some original bits.. but to pretend its still the LM Tiger that ran in '64.. sorry no dice.

To clarify myself and end my contribution to this discourse..

*Tigers and Alpine have a shared linage.
*Tigers were taken off the production line before certain alpine features were installed, modifed and had unique parts added and assigned an identity,
*Tigers can have parts replaced on them from donor cars, front/rear clips doors etc.. they can have modern rust replacement panels used, floors etc.. but the core of the original car existsts.
*swapping one Tiger's ID to another Tiger is trying to move the history of one car to another.. and deleting it forever.
*Swapping parts from a Tiger iunto and Alpine then removing the Vin doesnt make the new car a Tiger.. its still the Alpine, it now has parts from another car in it.. that shell was still an alpine and has a history with owners/events/repairs etc...
*A conversion can be done to a higher standard than a factory car (and we would hope so!) but if it's about workmanship, what does swapping a VIn achieve except you are trying to hide what happened?
*A cars VIN is its identity, it allows you to trace its ownership history and what it may have done.. swapping that to another car means you are attributing a history it did not create.

*If you receieve a liver transplant from someone and then take their drivers liscence, it doesnt make you them.. its just identity fraud.

For me its not about value, workmanship, the fact they once shared a comon production line.. IT IS about once that car has a VIn attached to it it starts a History.. swapping it to another car no matter what it is means you are deleting one cars history and replacing it with anothers... and no matter what the previous history of the wrecked car cant replace the history of the one its now on.





Thats the last i will say on this..
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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Ash
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Post by Ash » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:59 am

There are plenty of people breaking Alpines so the identity of those cars will be void in the end. If you buy a shell with no ID is it really identity fraud to re use it for another car either Alpine or Tiger?

As I understand it there are many Tigers in STOC wearing Alpine shells but some are that well done you would probably never know? They just appear to be mint Tigers and maybe thats the way the owners like it?

There also a few very botched-up genuine Tigers around. Are we saying they are more valuable than a re shell done correctly with a rust-free body?

Food for thought :?

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