Sunbeam Alpine/Alger/Tiger - reshell Poll

Post general questions relating to Tigers

Do you agree to use an Alpine shell to save a Tiger?

a) Yes, using an Alpine shell is acceptable to save a Tiger and does not need to be declared to any prospective future buyer.
1
4%
b) Yes, using an Alpine shell is acceptable but must be openly declared so.
12
46%
c) No, use of an Alpine shell takes away the DNA of a Jensen built Tiger.
11
42%
d) Undecided, though Alpine shells are a useful source of panels.
2
8%
 
Total votes: 26

Tomaselli
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Sunbeam Alpine/Alger/Tiger - reshell Poll

Post by Tomaselli » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:23 pm

With the Alpine/Alger/Tiger discussion clearly attracting plenty of interest - and going nowhere particularly fast, it was suggested by Gary Jackson that a Poll should be started to decide on how we all feel about this hot topic. This will give a useful pointer to how the community feels on the subject. Cast your vote, one permitted to registered users and let's see the results. Voting of course is purely anonymous;

Thanks to Gary for suggesting this to the board.


Discussions can continue on the relevant thread found here
Last edited by Tomaselli on Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gvickery
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Post by gvickery » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:46 pm

Thanks Tony for setting this up.

I wonder though why so many of our readers are so very bashful. Since you set this up earlier it has been viewed 80 times and 7 of us have cast a vote.
Come on you other 70+ browsers and anyone else reading this, consider your opinion have a sip of beer, wine, tea or water and VOTE!

We are not here simply to entertain, we'd like to know what you think too!!

Thanks again
Graham
STOC Editor

BTW Its anonymous!

martin172
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Post by martin172 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:16 pm

Not bashful....undecided. My opinion falls between B and C.

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Post by gvickery » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:20 pm

Oke doke Martin. Do we need another question then?

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Post by martin172 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:16 pm

gvickery wrote:Oke doke Martin. Do we need another question then?
No, not really. I just have mixed opinions on the subject.

I like the idea of all Tigers having Jensen finger prints on them but I know there are reshells out there from a time when it was the practical approach.

I also have thoughts that allowing reshells gives the unscrupulous a chance to ressurrect "dead" Tigers....but that may happen regardless.

I am also adamant that reshelling a Tiger is going to have an impact on the value, so why would someone declare if they don't need to. (That's where a TAC type system may help).
While there are Jensen Tigers in existence, why would someone pay the same amount for a reshell.
People will care because they will want to get value for their money.
That is a situation that you can't get rid of.

Allowing reshells could improve the value of Jensen Tigers but it may also put off potential buyers.

These and other things are going round in my head so I am undecided at the moment.

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Post by Tomaselli » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:04 am

OK Martin, point taken - there will be owners who will remain genuinely undecided so have added one more selection for those who are unable to choose on using outright an Alpine shell.

Would be good to get a result from all users, so even if you are still undecided there is no excuse to note your choice, again it's anonymous 8)

Red Race Tiger wrote:Where do you vote? How?
Voting is by hovering over the results bar and then click on your selection, care as you only have one shot when you are logged on.

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Post by tigerguy2 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:17 am

Graham, I will not be voting. It seems the results will be to used to guide STOC on its members preferences as to what others have declared to be a strictly British issue.

To the extent that this poll influences what stand the club will take in forthcoming deliberations on legal guidelines in the UK, I think it should be restricted to those who will be in one way or another affected. I am only a member of the forum and reside outside the UK.

Gene

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Post by gtsmrt » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:27 am

tigerguy2 wrote:Graham, I will not be voting. It seems the results will be to used to guide STOC on its members preferences as to what others have declared to be a strictly British issue.

To the extent that this poll influences what stand the club will take in forthcoming deliberations on legal guidelines in the UK, I think it should be restricted to those who will be in one way or another affected. I am only a member of the forum and reside outside the UK.

Gene
Hi Gene,

As usual you bring up some very valid points, but as you know Tiger's have a habit of travelling and there lies the problem. I would hate to see someone stung outside the British isles.

Regards, Robin.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

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Post by miketig » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:23 am

Still following this thread and it appears to now follow a cyclical pattern with all members unchanged in their opinions. This is perfectly understandable where you have poles of opinion from a Tiger is only a Tiger if it’s had the sweat of a Jenson engineer on it to once you change the oil on a car it’s not the car that left the factory so any further changes are mere detail allows endless debate. I think why we can’t come to an agreement is because we really have two discussions here, how we would like to build and maintain our own cars and secondly how we would like the outside world to view the Sunbeam Tiger.
For the first discussion the point is that for are own cars, that I presume we are happy with, does it matter ? If you are barrelling down the road in a reshelled Tiger you are getting all the same 60’s Tiger experience as an unshelled car, it would be mere snobbery to look down at the reshelled car as a lesser model, the experience as a lesser experience. The only problem would arise from what you chose to reveal to the subsequent buyer.

The important point is not our individual cars but how the outside world, the classic car fraternity and the press, view the Sunbeam Tiger marque. I have skimmed through various Tiger articles in magazines and spoken to other, non Tiger, classic car owners and a general consensus seems to be that with the Alpine and the Tiger we have two cars with very different profiles. One a rather pretty touring car, the other a Shelby inspired hairy chested thunder box. The problem is that they look so similar and it is this that exaggerates any difference between the two and makes them so paramount.

It appears that if I take my Alpine, knock the body about a bit and glue on my Tiger bits, I may go ahead and call it a Sunbeam Tiger, a Shelby Tiger, a modified Tiger but there is one name I may not choose to use but is still truthful, a modified Sunbeam Alpine. Now take my Tiger, that I picked up from the gates of Jensons, I have made some changes it is now a mid engined three wheeler powered solely by a wood burning stove, again I can name it anything I like but, crucially, I cannot truthfully call it a modified Sunbeam Alpine, it is still a Tiger. The outside world only sees a amalgamation of these two models as an undesirable bad thing, an Alger is always , ‘the dreaded Alger’, the owner of which is always the ‘sorry owner’.

Recently in the British press I have noticed a cloud starting to appear over the Tiger, (which has probably arisen from increasing values) whereby after the usual description there is a buyer beware warning, if you don’t do your research you may be sorry and end up with a modified Alpine. It is obviously the time to address this because left alone it won’t improve. You really don’t want it to get to the point where people tap your bonnet wink and mutter ‘did you make it yourself mate?’ The definition of what a Tiger is (and is not) needs to be firmed up, using a category of Tiger definitions will only weaken this. If you are in a market for a big engined UK 60’s sports car , decided on a Tiger then get warned it may or may not be a Tiger, that it is a category X , a flavour, a shade of Sunbeam Tiger you are going to walk away and buy the Austin Healey.

So in conclusion I think, to protect the marque, there is a requirement for some sort of TAC system in the UK, policed by STOC. From examples in this thread, adjustments may be need to the TAC definition and cars may need repeat TAC ing on say a 5 year basis to cover subsequent modifications. I am certain if we don’t police this issue then the classic car press and subsequently public opinion and the market certainly will.

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Post by dude234 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:25 pm

Graham, I voted even though I live in the USA. This issue is important world wide in the Tiger community and there should be a common agreement one way or the other. Having multiple standards on what constitues a limited production car as being "original" doesn't make sense. Is there any other marque that has conditions of originality varying by country? None that I know of.

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Post by martin172 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:41 pm

dude234 wrote:Graham, I voted even though I live in the USA. This issue is important world wide in the Tiger community and there should be a common agreement one way or the other. Having multiple standards on what constitues a limited production car as being "original" doesn't make sense. Is there any other marque that has conditions of originality varying by country? None that I know of.
Good point.
Is it a mixed opinion over in the US like here?

Perhaps a CAT site poll would be worthwhile.
The CAT site does seem to get more traffic than STOC.

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Post by gvickery » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:19 pm

Gene and Dude. This poll is open to all as is the re-shelling thread. I just had to pick the bones out of the re-shelling thread yesterday for STOC consumption so to say.

Graham
STOC Editor

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:26 pm

STOC,

Do you/we really think this poll can be taken seriously when things like this appear on ebay?

Item number 280865861464

Anyone owning what "They Think" could be a reshell will NEVER vote in a million years.

This only serves those who 100% know what they own is Jenson genuine, those who arn't sure will be under the duvet hiding....


"B" should read reshelled carrying Vin & Jal and declared. It's too vague and is only serving what will be the dreaded TAC in the UK by the back door. I saw that coming.

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Post by gvickery » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:37 pm

RRT
- STOC can't be asked to account for what's on eBay.
- b) Presupposes the presence of correct VIN & JAL plates
- a) Covers your point

'Dreaded 'TAC'..."saw that coming". Are we only allowed to agree with what you think? Are STOC members to be be denied access to knowledge?
There is a place for re-shelled Tigers in the Tiger community and there should be a place in this Club for owners to gain an insight into what they have.

Tell me, should the Club provide the means to enlighten members, if they wish, or should we leave them in the dark?

Graham
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:02 pm

Graham.

100% NO, not "MY" viewpoints which account for zero in the grand scheme of things but must take account of owners of rebodies in the DARK carried out past or present with disclosure......or NOT? Then if not we're all back to the ALGER again.

As long as "B" allow's the retention of VIN& JAL but agree's not 100% Jenson built ?

If the above is allowed for then all is well, other than that then yes it is TAC through the back door and will alienate some because of it.

Do you see an amicable solution that will please everyone?

As i have openly said i have NOT reshelled a Tiger....as yet, but we all know within the club they exisit. So what do WE do for those owners?

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