sunbeamtiger.co.uk

RED RACE TIGER

1

If a Tiger's been declared as a RESHELL then there is no fraud and there's 100% nothing to argue about is there?

If it is going to be openly declared, then what is wrong with the body carrying it's original ID.

2

Providing it carries all the Jenson Identifiers to a standard it's a Tiger.

No WRONG, it's a rebody.


3

To me as a U K built vehicle the opinions from abroad mean less than zero frankly.

The forum is a public forum and is open to all.
STOC welcomes international members.
Not only do you insult the internationals but you are happy to insult your fellow countrymen when they do not agree with your opinoin.

I certainly hope that if the authorities in the UK do legally allow rebodies that they do it properly and make it very difficuilt for a rebody to be registered unless it has been authourised and recorded. Checked every MOT and the vin with its differing ID stamped in the same area as the Euro Tigers.

Mal wrote:I realise that one of your main concerns is the cross over from when a resto becomes a rebody.

I talked to my panel man and he feels the core stucture of the car needs to be there. ie Firewall, A pillers . floor pan chassis rails , boot floor, rear guards, front inner guards. Not all have to be complete and some will need to be restored or replaced. From what source is up to the restorer.

A rebuild around a firewall is not a restore. He also raised his eye brows on the cut and weld rear end of the MK11. As for the replacement of a radiator mount, it is a panel which probably replaced commonly through accident.

Hi Mal,

Thanks for the post. Hopefully your panel man's thoughts count for something as a professional. What about his thoughts on converting an Alpine?

Regards, Robin.

Red Race Tiger wrote:Robin,

I was done with banging heads with you long ago, If you dont like what's being writen simple......dont reply to it.

You're not going to win this debate, neither is dude. Recently at the Alpine spares day you'd been suprised how many there mentioned this thread and the level of agreement with my view that a Tiger is nothing more than a factory sanction converted Alpine.

I can accept that why cant you? So therefore given a set of laid down identifiers a reshelled car would still be a Tiger. Although and here again i state not one originaly assembled by Jenson

AND IT IS DECLARED AS SUCH.......


If that simple statement could be agreed upon then all this childish bickering would cease.

We might be done banging heads, but you continue to let the insults fly though!! Well an Alpine spares day says it all and again I'm not debating where the Tiger was derived from. I accept an Alpine is an Alpine and a Tiger is a Tiger as designed and built by Rootes. Declarations and identifiers mean nothing unless correctly sanctioned and enforced, but I don't see how.

Red,

"You're not going to win this debate, neither is dude."


Game, set, match. It's all over but the shouting from you. Your arguments don't add up to a hill of beans. Why is that? You need facts to back up any points you try to make in a discussion and so far, you have presented none.


"Recently at the Alpine spares day you'd been suprised how many there mentioned this thread and the level of agreement with my view that a Tiger is nothing more than a factory sanction converted Alpine. "


Really? What did you expect Alpine owners to say? Try asking the same question of a group of Tiger owners.

dude234 wrote:Gentlemen, these are the facts and you cannot dispute the facts.


FACT:
This discussion revolves around one issue; can someone in their shed/garage/shop create a genuine Sunbeam Tiger by applying parts on an Alpine chassis. Also, will that creation be regarded by the Tiger community as a legitimate Rootes ordered, Jensen built Sunbeam Tiger. The answer is it will never happen.

FACT:
An individual who creates a Sunbeam Tiger by applying parts to an Alpine shell in their shed/garage/shop and never discloses the origin when sold, has commited fraud for monetary gain.

FACT:
No one cares if one's mind is never changed on this discussion subject. And yes, we legitimate Tiger owners are snobs because it is an exclusive club that is expensive to join. If you want membership then buy a Rootes ordered, Jensen built Sunbeam Tiger. Algers need not apply.

As RRT says I have no idea what your talking about. This forum thread is not discussing your facts. I too suggest you go back and read it from the start so you can be having the same conversation the rest us are.

Mal wrote:

meadowhog wrote:If were talking the process, at what point does a door become a Tiger door, or for that matter any panel. I just remembered Oh a door doesnt count, or a bonnet or a boot or a front wing or a rear wing, or sills, or floors, or front valance or rear valance or cruxiform or A posts or in one case? the whole rear end or the rad mount. TAC and both sides of the arguement have agreed that.

So that just about leaves the bulk head, trans tunnel and front wheel arches.

Ergo As long as youve got the paperwork and those 3 parts in one piece youve got a Tiger.

Then when you want to rebuild that Tiger it would be better and more authentic to use Pressed Steel Panels than post production replicas. It would also be better to have those parts already welded together by the same person that would have welded your old Tiger together.

I realise that one of your main concerns is the cross over from when a resto becomes a rebody.

I talked to my panel man and he feels the core stucture of the car needs to be there. ie Firewall, A pillers . floor pan chassis rails , boot floor, rear guards, front inner guards. Not all have to be complete and some will need to be restored or replaced. From what source is up to the restorer.

A rebuild around a firewall is not a restore. He also raised his eye brows on the cut and weld rear end of the MK11. As for the replacement of a radiator mount, it is a panel which probably replaced commonly through accident.

Thanks Mal

I agree that what your panel man identifies as the core of the car as he describes. Where it starts to get grey for me is when, and as Ive seen, and theres plenty of pics on places like Dales site, that show a lot of these parts removed repaired and replaced. Once removed the proof that it ever belonged to the original shell is lost.

Could you ask him, when restoring a car thats considerably worse than yours, what would be left if you cut out all/every bit of rot in one go. I realise for shell stability you wouldnt do it all in one go but the end resultant work would be the same.

For me the guaranteed part of the shell to still be intact would be firewall trans tunnel, front chassis legs, front inner wheel arches. But is that enough to be a Tiger? In this thread and other websites its been agreed and seen that a heck of a lot of a car can be cut away from this guaranteed Tiger section and then replaced.

I started this thread somewhere in the middle of the two sides of the arguement. You are the first person thats picked up on what I really wanted out of this thread so I thank you. I would rather have a statement that says 'if this and this is conformed to in a restoration then it will be regarded as a Genuine Jenson Tiger'. This would be preferable to a designation of reshell.

dude234 wrote:Red,

"You're not going to win this debate, neither is dude."


Game, set, match. It's all over but the shouting from you. Your arguments don't add up to a hill of beans. Why is that? You need facts to back up any points you try to make in a discussion and so far, you have presented none.


"Recently at the Alpine spares day you'd been suprised how many there mentioned this thread and the level of agreement with my view that a Tiger is nothing more than a factory sanction converted Alpine. "


Really? What did you expect Alpine owners to say? Try asking the same question of a group of Tiger owners.

There you go again, missing the point.

dude tends to forget that there are many owners that not only own alpines but also tigers and various other rootes vehicles. it makes life interesting !

Stand by your bed's ......Roberts back.

Come on Robert we all know who you are, why o why wont you come out and reveal yourself:?:

Robert Diehl wrote:

A fake and an original!!

You may need to quietly check your facts regarding the original?

And i dont think P M ever claimed his car was. He has/had some of the nicest Tigers in the U K, so comments made about his cars are a bit of a joke frankly and have no place on this thread. His car is/was an early Harrington with high rear wings, really nicely turned out vehicle. So how was that ever put forward as a Tiger?

His workmanship and preperation is by my own standards 100% first class and he did /does it for his own pleasure, not finantial gain i cant imagine.

Folklore says that the gold harrington pictured was shipped to the California in the mid 90's to attend some sort of big do? possibly a Suni event? For the owners trouble the car had already been slated by mouth and printed media......when the owner went to find the well known author he was nowhere to be found and had done a runner. That's the type of people we have to deal with, Chinese wispers and elitist rubbish all of it.

So what's next then

Red Race Tiger wrote:You may need to quietly check your facts regarding the original?

And i dont think P M ever claimed his car was. He has/had some of the nicest Tigers in the U K, so comments made about his cars are a bit of a joke frankly and have no place on this thread. His car is/was an early Harrington with high rear wings, really nicely turned out vehicle. So how was that ever put forward as a Tiger?

His workmanship and preperation is by my own standards 100% first class and he did /does it for his own pleasure, not finantial gain i cant imagine.

Folklore says that the gold harrington pictured was shipped to the California in the mid 90's to attend some sort of big do? possibly a Suni event? For the owners trouble the car had already been slated by mouth and printed media......when the owner went to find the well known author he was nowhere to be found and had done a runner. That's the type of people we have to deal with, Chinese wispers and elitist rubbish all of it.

So what's next then

My sources show there was one legitimate Sunbeam Harrington Tiger... The blue one shown. The gold car may not be (but why the Tiger badging??), but how about this one for a re-shell then and it even states it's a Tiger... http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C264796
Can't argue that it doesn't look the part, but this is a perfect example of what we have said through this thread about where disclosure leads.

Robin,

Again check your facts there mate before posting, the car being advertised IS a real Tiger. Fact. What's been done to it with STUCK ON early Series Alpine rear wings is a personal taste thing? Not mine.

But a Jenson built Tiger lays just underneath.

if i remember right, peter had this blue car and a couple others shipped to the east coast and they drove them to snow mass ,colorado for suni 1 in 1989. i had two harringtons at the time. it was interesting to not only see the only tiger converted by harrington but also to see peter's car. isn't the blue car the original tiger that he installed series 3 rear wings and the harrington top on ?