Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

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garyv8tiger
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Post by garyv8tiger » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:23 pm

someones upset check the guestbook out . :x

martin172
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Post by martin172 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:51 pm

Well, he'll either sign up and share his wisdom or troll off back where he came from.

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gvickery
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Post by gvickery » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:43 pm

To help along the discussion (and lets keep it a discussion and not a rant or a repetitive mantra!).

The Tiger monocoque is - yes - derived from the Alpine design but Pressed Steel constructed Tiger bodies to order and fitted the JAL body tags to differentiate between the two processes. The body construction does differ from the Alpine (ahead of Jensen's handiwork) - in several small ways; check out for example the boot wall of both bodies.

Top hats were not fitted by Pressed Steel to Tiger bodies, that was done at Jensen...cutting out the Alpine items would knacker the inner wings.

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gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:52 pm

martin172 wrote:Well, he'll either sign up and share his wisdom or troll off back where he came from.
If he has further information then I wish he would share it instead of calling it all 'tosh'. He is entitled to his opinion just as we are and there is nothing wrong with a spirited discussion. It was posted as 'sticky', so there's the warning right there. Subscribe to the thread or keep quiet I say.
Robin O'Dell
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gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:00 pm

gvickery wrote:To help along the discussion (and lets keep it a discussion and not a rant or a repetitive mantra!).

The Tiger monocoque is - yes - derived from the Alpine design but Pressed Steel constructed Tiger bodies to order and fitted the JAL body tags to differentiate between the two processes. The body construction does differ from the Alpine (ahead of Jensen's handiwork) - in several small ways; check out for example the boot wall of both bodies.

Top hats were not fitted by Pressed Steel to Tiger bodies, that was done at Jensen...cutting out the Alpine items would knacker the inner wings.

Graham
STOC Editor
Thanks Graham, that certainly confirms what we have been talking about in previous posts. This also may continue what Tony was wondering about in regards to taking random shells off the assembly line. To me, that would point to possible tool changes when running Tiger bodies which would take planning ahead. Just my though.
Robin O'Dell
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Post by Tomaselli » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:06 am

So can one argue that a 'Pressed Steel' body destined for the Jensen Tiger assembly production line was different to just using any Alpine body. Is that an argument or even a discussion point for whether you should distinguish between Jensen Tigers and rebodied Tigers.

Of course the AF cars and pre-production Tigers will use Alpine bodies plucked off the Pressed Steel production line, and then came the more formal production run for Jensen. I assume....

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Post by gtsmrt » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:26 am

For this I think we should call it a discussion, haven't we been arguing enough :lol: . For me you can't deny that a Jensen Tiger is an original without doubt, if re-bodied, it can't be called an original unless re-bodied with another Jensen Tiger body.
Robin O'Dell
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:16 am

Unless i'm mistaken ALL the AF cars were Alpine's? and B9470016 was the first customer Tiger to be available to the public, Rare red and LHD

B9470001 - 9470015 were pre production and rally cars, could it have been possible that the very early vynil dashed mk1's were a bit ad hock in assembly and were a toe in the water in terms of the build process.

Was it all Jensons responsibility at that time untill a dedicated Pressed Steel shell for the Tiger came along through in 1a and onto the 2

Intrestingly like Graham has pointed out Alpine bodies would have had to come through without the Alpines verticle spare wheel brackets spot welded to the rear bulkhead.

It's proberby most likely then there was a dedicated Tiger body by then.

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Post by michael-king » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:52 am

gtsmrt wrote: There were also the GT Tigers as well which you would think would have been done together. Maybe we will never know Tony.
Rob, all the GT tigers have consecutive numbers, they were one batch.

As for your comments regarding a car here and odd details on it.. mismatched parts on a Tiger wont fail a TAC inspection, infact you can replace large amounts of the bodywork, modify many things and still pass a TAC inspection. They are looking for the methods used by Jensen to make the body. This is what Paul also misses, A decent bodyworker can reproduce the end result of a Tiger body, but it will likely still show up.. the methods used leave a certain trace of HOW the body was modified, not just what it looked like when done.

As for your comment about rebodying a Tiger with a Tiger.. you are saying swapping VIN from one Tiger to another is ok? I dont think that is the right thing to do. Sure comps departments did it back in the day to avoid taxes on write-offs of their rally//works cars but these days why would you do it?

I dont think welding the rear deck out of a rusted MKII Tiger into a MKIA and swapping the trims etc across then allows you to re VIN the car as a MKII.. its a MKIA that you have modfied using MKII parts. Swapping the VIN to another car is destroying and hiding the identity of car that is being converted.

In the endevouring outer hills of melbourne there is a sunbeam owner who bought a hevaily rusted Tiger B9472667LRXFE. He started to restore it but it was proving to rusty, the more he dug away at it the worse it got. In late 2009 he acquired a Tiger shell in the USA B9471586LRXFE (very close numbers) the car had no ID atgs at the time and was a rolling shell with LAT bonnet, original bonnet, rebuilt front end and diff. The car was then imported to Australia using VIN and SAL tags from a S3GT Alpine. that car is now recieveing the VIN off the first car.. and the Tiger specific parts of the first car will likely find their way into a conversion that will also recieve a Tiger VIn.

Apart from the fact the car was imported kowingly using fake ID's.. (and this is the perfect example of how a car can vanish).. The resulting Tiger will not be B9472667LRXFE despite it wearing those tags.

The car is still B9471586LRXFE. Now it would be interesting if the 586 numbers are being used on a car in the states, or indeed what will happen to the leftovers of 667... i wonder if the person doing this will disclose what has occured.
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
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Post by gtsmrt » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:58 am

That was what I assumed with the GT models Michael and it would make sense to do it that way so they are all consecutive. The owner of that Tiger will be happy then as it was proving to be a head ache for him. In regards to re-bodying with another Tiger, I don't approve of VIN swapping and in that case it would take on the VIN of the new shell, cancelling the previous VIN. That is what I would like to think would happen, but in reality we know what would happen :( . Re-bodying in regards to what I am talking about, meaning a full shell swap. Panel repairs with a similar bodied car is a whole different kettle of fish. Unfortunately the VIN tag swaps happen everywhere and with our small number in Australia, we need to be very wary of that and just make sure potential future buyers are aware and do the necessary checks.
Robin O'Dell
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Robert Diehl
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Post by Robert Diehl » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:32 am

What a trip! Really great. For sure none of the guys on any other site are still talking about this stuff. I agree with Red Race Tiger's earlier thought.

NO ALPINE ... NO TIGER...

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tiger

Post by 65beam » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:32 am

this argument will never have a conclusion. there will always be some that will find fault with what others decide to do. i would not hesitate to rebody a car. i've proved my feelings on that a few times. some don't like my thinking but they have never seen my cars nor do they share my views. would i rebody a tiger? the answer is yes! if i owned or found a tiger that could only be saved by a rebody that is what i would do. a very good friend locally has owned a tiger and many alpines for many years the tiger now has really bad crash damage and has set a few years he found last week that he has a few months to live so what happens to that tiger now? will someone end up buying the car and doing a rebody? who knows! i just don't understand why it's wrong to rebody a tiger but those same people never seem to complain if an alpine gets rebodied. why is that?

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Post by gtsmrt » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:31 am

Hi Bob, there is no disputing Red Race Tiger's comments and we all know this. The divide between a few of us is the re-shelling of a Tiger and swapping of VIN's to deceive people. If the owner is up front about the re-shelling, there is no issue.
Robin O'Dell
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Mal
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Post by Mal » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:07 am

I agree, but I don't agree that the rebodied car should have to keep the Alpine vin. A car is a car in it's entire, not just a body.

What makes a Tiger special from an alpine. Really it's the mechaicals. Same with a GTHO Falcon and most other special vehicals. The bodies are the same as their base models. It is the mechanicals of the car that make that model special. Something we as Tiger owners replace with more modern, more powerfull and better enginered mechanicals without a great deal of concern to originality.
I am not saying that is wrong either as it is the owners car and their choice. Also a Tiger is like a factory hot rod anyway.

The thing with replacing the mechanicls of the car it is obvious to a potential buyer if they do a bit of home work, that these are not original parts and the buyer can make the choice as to if they want original or modifyed.
If the car has been rebodied it can be hidden and is not as easy to detect.
That is why it needs to be recorded and the car carries another tag or the alpines vin as well as well as the original Tigers vin. The mechanicals of a original car are as just as important as the body. Thats why matching # cars in most makes are top dollar cars.
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Post by gtsmrt » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:06 am

Hi Mal, This is why the topic keeps going round and around. In regards to many cars it is the mechanicals that make the car which makes re-bodying easier. There is also no problem with how the owner decides too modify their vehicle, but in regards to the Tiger you can't just bung a V8 in an Alpine without doing the Tiger mods. If someone wants to do this, I have no issue with that, but as you stated they should be made to carry dual VIN's or something to tell people of its change for what ever reason. The problem is that we know things will not be recorded and there lies the issue.
Robin O'Dell
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ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

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