Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

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gvickery
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Post by gvickery » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:54 pm

Yeah Gary. That's down to me. Sorry about that.
Putting a new thread up with old posts and a 'sticky', even with Mr T's guidance was obviously too much for me!!

Graham

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Post by garyv8tiger » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:57 pm

i thought it was tomaselli abusing his position again :mrgreen:

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Post by lovejoy » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:49 pm

Hello again guys - so here's a thought - what IF, a european spec Alpine 260 is beyond repair, and the owner transplants it into ALPINE shell, then is that tolerated by those who don't agree with the laissez-faire attitude of some of us ?
An interesting thought, eh Graham ? (he whom has a special interest in Alpine 260's 8))
(climbs back into hammock again, for another siesta.....)
Last edited by lovejoy on Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by 65beam » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:38 pm

now there's a good point! if you rebody an alpine 260 into another alpine shell you still have an alpine 260. i do know there are some alpine 260's here in the states but i'm getting old and never thought of than scenario.

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Post by Tomaselli » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:44 pm

I should know, did Jensen have a bare Alpine shell to work with when they made Tigers or did they receive Tiger bodies from 'Pressed Steel' already converted to accomodate the V8 running gear.

Or did Jensen just convert the earlier prototype batch and then Rootes outsourced body construction to 'Pressed Steel' for Jensen simply to assemble cars later.

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Post by Tomaselli » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:46 pm

.....then again, maybe 'Pressed Steel' didn't convert Alpine shells and were made up as Tiger bodies from the outset??

martin172
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Post by martin172 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:58 pm

The lack of red primer around the trans tunnel join would suggest that it was retro fitted?

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Post by garyv8tiger » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:05 pm

i suppose its ok to reshell an alpine using a tiger shell as it was an alpine to start with :mrgreen:

but if thats the case why cant you save a tiger .what came 1st the chicken or the egg.

easy way round this is to assasinate all tiger police and purists problem solved lmao :mrgreen:

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Re: tiger

Post by michael-king » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:13 pm

65beam wrote: i guess if michael knew what the cost to do it right really is, he might change his attitude after looking at and understanding the owners viewpoint.
Bob.. as usual you havent read what i have written.. :roll: so to break it down quickly for you.. you have made my point for me..

They are switching numbers on the cars to maintain value.
65beam wrote:"pay a lot of money for a basket case tiger, pay a lot of money for a good alpine for the donor car and then pay 40 k us dollars or more to restore it. now you have a rebodied tiger that you have more money in than you could ever sell it for".
You then say:
65beam wrote:"an owner that would spend the time,money and effort to do it would probably care less about the fact that others have a moral issue with doing a conversion. they have a car that they are proud of. and it is their car".
If that is true the quality of the car and their pride in it has nothing to do with a VIN munber, Leave the alpine tags on the body thats doesnt change the quality of the car/restroation.

The reason people move the VIN's over is plain and simple.. they want someone to think it is a car that it is not. If they were not trying to do it for personal gain then why do they not disclose what has occured? Why do they not say the car has been rebodied?

As for restoration costs.. i have a very good idea what they are, and 40K is probably not even a starting point of a rusty car to get back to show standards... but thats another topic.
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
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Post by 65beam » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:08 am

as usual some read only what they want and read into it what they want to think. for those of you that aren't aware of the situation,michael always disagrees with me. i believe that a true collector of a single marque of cars is doing it for the strong passion that they have for their cars. not as an investment.we have no one else to please but ourselves. so if i wanted to rebody a tiger i would do it and not have to ask for permission from someone else. and i would have it done by a person capable of properly doing the conversion. in my mind it would be a tiger. and it is possible to legally rebody. i also would not hesitate to use a good alpine body for parts to restore another alpine. it's no secret that we cut up a rust free series 3 alpine GT body to restore my series 4. it was beat to death with many body dents and also twisted frame rails but drill spot welds and you have original,no rust sunbeam panels. it also has a tiger 2 rear fender. it's documented on my photobucket. http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/tt142/65beam/ i will be posting some new photos of it tommorow since the trunk interior and the interior of the car were painted wednesday. the shop started on the car in march 2009. i know that i have no plans to sell any of my sunbeam collection which includes 3 harringtons and 2 fastbacks along with the alpines. and as my collection grows my stock of parts continues to grow accordingly. it's a passion for me and not an investment. is a tiger no longer a tiger if rebodied? my opinion is no! rootes must have had no problem with it either since they rebodied or let's say converted alpines to tigers. or should i say ALPINE 260's.my opinion is there's nothing wrong with it. i would convert a tiger back to an alpine if i wanted to. just ask the guy that does my body work. he's heard me say it many times.

Red Race Tiger

Algers, reshelling, ringing etc etc

Post by Red Race Tiger » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:55 am

Blimey, thought i was starting this thread? looks like iv'e been Hi Jacked.....


I shall try to keep this post as short as i can but for reasons that will become obvious i may ramble, so sorry in advance.

For those who do not know of my background my father Malcolm Sears owned and raced with some success AHP 295B, an ex works Sunbeam Tiger which after Rootes had ceased rallying the Tiger's sold them off to whoever wanted them.

295B was sold the Mr Mike Coombe (Mike was an Rootes competition mechanic) who modified the car to a fast road spec and raced it during 67/68 as such.
In 1969 the car was purchased by my father who further went on to develop it into one of the fastest modified sports cars in the county.

Unfortunately at Oulton Park in September 1971 my father left the circuit at Old Hall and had an accident that would change his life from that day forward.

As a result of that accident he sustained terrible injuries and head truma, he would spend the next nine years in hospital until 1980

Stick with me here.....

On impact the Tiger burst into flames, being LHD and Old Hall being a RH bend he took the full force of the impact as the engine and gearbox slammed back into the cockpit. The car was completely destroyed, what was left of AHP 295B was just a rusting unrecognisable race car and was taken to the bone yard as scrap. End of AHP 295B......or so you would have thought.


Without going into to much personal detail the only thing that remained of 295 was the old original green log book that my father still held onto as a keep sake, as a result of head truma he suffered from memory loss.....and he was coned out of that log book as so begun the nasty spiteful "Ringing" of my fathers ex works rally car.

He suffered badly from that accident that almost claimed his life and i was dammed if i was ever going to see ANYONE benifit from his misfortune, and so started the long fight against the "Ringers"

No names mentioned here as they know who they are, the person who built the "Ringer" and the other who bank rolled it. Shame on you both.

I owe a great deal of gratitude to STOC for there support back in 1994 and especially to Norman Miller who is the voice of the Sunbeam Tiger. You can see the saga of AHP 295B on his website in the ALGER alley.....

The final nail in this AIR cars coffin came in 2008 when Doug Nye wrote an article on my father and 295 in "MOTORSPORT" detailing the car's demise. The game was finally up and my struggle to end the farce was at an end.

Still awake??


My facination with the Sunbeam Tiger obviously goes back to those times as a child watching my father race his ex works car and it has clearly stayed with me ever sinse....

To the topic then.


As we all know the Sunbeam Tiger derived directly from the Alpine, no denial there i hope, no Alpine....no Tiger
Both cars share a very basic and easily changeable identifier in the chassis plaque and jal/sal number held on with two rivets and two screws.

Once Rootes gave the go ahead for the Thunderbolt project to Jensen the Tiger as we all know it was born, these cars were built in very low volume's and to a price, you only have to look at the shody coversion welding to the top hats and bulkhead/tunnel to realise that, it was a 60's shoehorn job for sure.

Today Tigers are on the UP price wise which is super for the marque we'd all agree i'm sure. except for those who own an "ALGER" rebody, re-shell, ringer or what ever name you care to hang on it.

Top hat without doubt top line Mk2 Tigers are now out of reach of the common working man, who has 50-60K laying around?? so maybe the only way into enjoying these cars is a re-body etc. we all know they are out there so why not now embrace them? and bring them in from the outside?

It wont affect the prices of the Top Line cars at all, it may even push their prices up even further but personaly i dont see that giving such cars a Status such as "Re Shelled" "Rebodied" other than ALGER which suggest's back street bodge up could do any harm.

In the U S they have the TAC inspection which is great if you live in the sun, we live in a pond most of the time and things rust away so why could there not be something similar along the lines of "Declare as a Reshell" and providing it carries ALL of the Tiger identifiers ie Chassis, Jal, Axle and Gearbox numbers and has been done to the highest standards and contain's 100% of what a Tiger would and should have the car would be assigned as being "Reshelled" to specified Standard? No more, no less.

I'm not talking about an Alpine with a 302, Autobox and an axle from a Buick built in Jim's back yard, that is an Alpine V8 thingy clearly.
I'm talking about a topline conversion done properly and in most cases better than Jenson ever did in the day.

It really seams double standards to me that if we owned MGB's we could trot off to heritege and come home with a new shell and build a new MGB, if a Tiger owner does that with a rust free Alpine and does the same thing it's an Alger?

The car gets saved.


Provided there isn't clear deceipt and "ringing" which clearly is against the law is it wrong to save one of these quirky cars? The expense and man hours involved far outways the value i would have thought.

I'm really sorry for rambling on, from a Tiger fan :)

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:28 am

And again,

Sorry Micheal i have to strongly disagree, i have read your post's elsewhere world wide where you say that Alger owners should not allowed to display their cars alongside yours ie a "REAL" Tiger..... C'mon mate that's a bit harsh.

An 65 Tiger "Reshelled" directly into a 65 Alpine with the correct modification's has to be a Tiger.... why would YOU insist that it carries an Alpine chassis number which clearly it is now NOT? other than to make YOUR's the real UNSHELLED Tiger all the more valueable.

I cant see the logic in that.

Let's call them both Sunbeam's for the sake of this post, put your's and a Top line re-shell side by side and ask for an inspection? Other than your's was built by Jenson chances are you couldn't tell them apart.....except maybe that the reshell's conversion's been carried better out quite possibly :idea:

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Post by michael-king » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:38 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:And again,

Sorry Micheal i have to strongly disagree, i have read your post's elsewhere world wide where you say that Alger owners should not allowed to display their cars alongside yours ie a "REAL" Tiger..... C'mon mate that's a bit harsh.
:
I dont get where you are getting this.. read what i wrote.. i spend some time to comprehend it.. i dont have an issue with people doing algers.. i have an issue with them putting Tiger VIN's on it.. and hiding the fact they have done so .

plain and simple.. if you transplant all the parts into an alpine shell.. keep the alpine VIN on.. can it be more simple?

Find me one time where i have said otherwise.. you are probalby reading bob (65beams) posts and his projections about my stance. i have always said the same thing.. i have no issue about conversions if they are transparent about it.. the only reason someone would hide the fact its been rebodied is for financial gain.
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:07 am

Why keep the Alpine Vin? we're talking about a complete re-shelled Tiger into a rust free Alpine which is then a Tiger or am i missing something??

Regardless of weather Jenson carried out the mod's or tom dick or harry did it it's a Tiger regardless.

Personally should i own such a car i'd have no hessitation in admitting it was re-shelled, but it wouldn't be an Alpine, it's a rebodied Tiger with an Alpine shell....which strangley is exactly the same thing that Jenson did.

Tony, folklore has it that Jenson were supplied fully rolling and painted Alpine's minus engine/gearbox and top hats.

Upon the Jenson assy line both front and rear axles were stripped off to be shipped back to Coventry for Alpine production, them Jenson would start to hack the Alpine shell apart which would explain why the top hats and bulkhead etc were stick welded and painted over without any primer, just body colour.

Built to a price.

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Post by michael-king » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:25 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:Why keep the Alpine Vin? we're talking about a complete re-shelled Tiger into a rust free Alpine which is then a Tiger or am i missing something??

Regardless of weather Jenson carried out the mod's or tom dick or harry did it it's a Tiger regardless.

Personally should i own such a car i'd have no hessitation in admitting it was re-shelled, but it wouldn't be an Alpine, it's a rebodied Tiger with an Alpine shell....which strangley is exactly the same thing that Jenson did.
Ok.. i think you are missing something.. you havent got a tiger reshelled with an alpine.. you have an alpine that a bunch of tiger parts have been welded into and then its VIN replaced. That alpine has been another car for 45+ years and suddenly its history doesnt exisit and its a Tiger from rootes? Its a replica, recreation, tribute, tool room copy.. it can be exactly as a Tiger, but its not a factory built car.

You say you would be happy to disclose the fact your car had been re-shelled, thats fine, but what reason do you have for replacing the VIN unless you are trying to represent the car as the body that has now been scrapped?

I would like to get your opinion on similar circumstances:

Lets say you own a GT350 mustang, it is crashed/rusted etc.. beyond sensible salvage, if you place all the hotted up bits, replicate the extra bracing on a stock mustang fastback and swap the VIN across is it a GT350, or a GT350 recreation/replica?

If you have a MKII 289 cobra, crash it and wreck it, if you you get a late model AC ace and move all the cobra bits over and stamp the cobra CX/COB number in it, does it become a true cobra?

Both these cases are the same as the alpine/tiger situation. One car sires another, the factory convert them.. you can perform the same process on a car the factory did, but that car has a history as either a stock mustang, AC ace or Sunbeam Alpine.

Just because you replicate the factory procedure on it doesnt make it a GT350, Cobra or Tiger.. it makes it a replica using factory parts.... and there is nothing wrong with that, if people are being honest about it.. which gets me back to the original point.. its fine to execute one of these conversions, but unless you are trying to hide something, why are you hiding the cars true identity?

As a side note there are many bugattis that are now built completly with factory parts, but they are assembled 60+ years after the factory closed, they are acknowledged as cars built from bugatti parts, but not factory cars... then there are cars such as the tool room copy Kirkham cobras, chevrons, lancia D50's by jim stokes etc.. all amazing recreations, exactly as per the factory.. but nobody is assigning them factory ID's... despite them having factory parts with history.
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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