My opinion about re-shelling a broken & rotten Tiger with a rustfree Alpine shell ( With full disclosure) which the Tiger directly derives from wont change......period, no deception no fraud. Still a Tiger all the same.
What i did/do object to is a car "Well Documented" to have been scrapped in which a man almost died in, regardless of it being my father......or not.
A sense of "decency" and doing the right thing has to take affect?
If a car is known to have been scrapped many years ago.....let it go, i would never condon resurecting that. Just saving what we have left today. Nothing more.
It was noted in this thread that the "LINDER" lightwieght E Type has been "Rebuilt"?? A man died in that car, and it should have been left that way, as a wreck. Sometimes as time goes buy things get more than a little lost, but next it'll be Senna's Williams or Diana's Mercedes? Bad enough that Campbell's Bluebird is being rebuilt.
Malcolm Sears ex works Sunbeam Tiger (AHP 295B) was smashed and burnt behond saving, what was left was scrapped......That is why i could not allow any one claiming otherwise.
Had the car survived and remained in my families ownership trust me if a suitable Tiger shell could not have been found then a bloody good rust free Series 4 Alpine would have done the job......even better if it were Carnival Red.
There's already two "Ex Works" Rally Cars on NON ORIGINAL shells, (One is TAC'd) one more would have made no difference.
But that fact's are Robin that 295 was documented (By Me) to the Tiger club as "Totally Destroyed" and scrapped back in 1980/81, so no way was i ever going to allow any low life scum bags to profit from anyone's misfortune.
Hopefully now you have your answer.
TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.
Red and Hog,
You mention the origins of the Le Mans Tigers as some type of secret that no one knows about.
Read "The Works Tigers" by Graham Rood. One of the chapters discusses the three Le Mans Tigers and show the origin and development of the three cars. Most of the book talks about the rally Tigers and once again shows the origin/development and rally results. At least one was rebodied with a Rootes Tiger shell during its competitive life because the car was destroyed. It was easier to swap the VIN to another Tiger instead of filling out the FIA paperwork.
What is your point about the Le Mans and Rally Tigers?
You mention the origins of the Le Mans Tigers as some type of secret that no one knows about.
Read "The Works Tigers" by Graham Rood. One of the chapters discusses the three Le Mans Tigers and show the origin and development of the three cars. Most of the book talks about the rally Tigers and once again shows the origin/development and rally results. At least one was rebodied with a Rootes Tiger shell during its competitive life because the car was destroyed. It was easier to swap the VIN to another Tiger instead of filling out the FIA paperwork.
What is your point about the Le Mans and Rally Tigers?
Hi dude
My point is that ADU 638B as an example, is known as Tiger. However it is a modified Alpine, fact. And as you stated works cars being reshelled is not a problem for me but for some it seems this act makes the car a fraud. Its all about personal perception and interpretation of the facts, not just the facts themselves. Its more complicated than just the facts as can be seen in the poll which is 50/50.
My point is that ADU 638B as an example, is known as Tiger. However it is a modified Alpine, fact. And as you stated works cars being reshelled is not a problem for me but for some it seems this act makes the car a fraud. Its all about personal perception and interpretation of the facts, not just the facts themselves. Its more complicated than just the facts as can be seen in the poll which is 50/50.
-
Red Race Tiger
There's a bit to pick up on here.
- The Pressed Steel patent body plates on the Le Mans cars tell us 7734 KV started out with a SIII body and the ADU cars started out as SIV's.
- The three of them were built as factory sanctioned "Sunbeam Tigers" from new, albeit the name was settled on in April after the KV car had been built. The KV car derived from AF1 and in all probability the race cars started as 'body in white' shells.
- One of the works rally cars was re-bodied by the factory during the production period (AHP 294B) using the shell of another Tiger as carefully noted in the Rood book. The ID of the donor Tiger is known to the STOC Register. (Another works machine ADU 311B had sheet metal changed but it is not thought to have been re-bodied).
- All of the surviving AF development cars started out as SIV Alpines. They were though built by Jensen Motors into Tigers as precursors to production.
The way I see it is these early cars were never released, registered or run as Alpines; they never got that far before they became Tigers. None had any prehistory. Equally, it is quite true that the dozen SIV's given to JML had their chassis numbers removed and replaced with Tiger ID's but their SAL body tags were not changed for JAL tags. Presumably because Pressed Steel hadn't built the bodies of these cars as Tigers!
To my mind the key thing here is that the factory sanctioned the alteration of several new Alpines in to Tigers and instructed their sub-contractor Jensen Motors to do so. Yes, they are hybrids as they didn't start out as 'Tigers' at Pressed Steel as per the eventual production process. But Rootes the official manufacturer changed their 'type approval' credentials from Alpine to Tiger as they were permitted to.
So Simon I say ADU 638B was a modified Alpine and is a Sunbeam Tiger!
I'm not sure if/how this helps the 'debate' about 're-shelling' because it all happened at the 'dawn of the Tiger'.
My post of 29th April shows what direction I believe the Club should take as regards post-production period re-shelling.
Now where's that bottle of Merlot!!
Graham
STOC Editor
- The Pressed Steel patent body plates on the Le Mans cars tell us 7734 KV started out with a SIII body and the ADU cars started out as SIV's.
- The three of them were built as factory sanctioned "Sunbeam Tigers" from new, albeit the name was settled on in April after the KV car had been built. The KV car derived from AF1 and in all probability the race cars started as 'body in white' shells.
- One of the works rally cars was re-bodied by the factory during the production period (AHP 294B) using the shell of another Tiger as carefully noted in the Rood book. The ID of the donor Tiger is known to the STOC Register. (Another works machine ADU 311B had sheet metal changed but it is not thought to have been re-bodied).
- All of the surviving AF development cars started out as SIV Alpines. They were though built by Jensen Motors into Tigers as precursors to production.
The way I see it is these early cars were never released, registered or run as Alpines; they never got that far before they became Tigers. None had any prehistory. Equally, it is quite true that the dozen SIV's given to JML had their chassis numbers removed and replaced with Tiger ID's but their SAL body tags were not changed for JAL tags. Presumably because Pressed Steel hadn't built the bodies of these cars as Tigers!
To my mind the key thing here is that the factory sanctioned the alteration of several new Alpines in to Tigers and instructed their sub-contractor Jensen Motors to do so. Yes, they are hybrids as they didn't start out as 'Tigers' at Pressed Steel as per the eventual production process. But Rootes the official manufacturer changed their 'type approval' credentials from Alpine to Tiger as they were permitted to.
So Simon I say ADU 638B was a modified Alpine and is a Sunbeam Tiger!
I'm not sure if/how this helps the 'debate' about 're-shelling' because it all happened at the 'dawn of the Tiger'.
My post of 29th April shows what direction I believe the Club should take as regards post-production period re-shelling.
Now where's that bottle of Merlot!!
Graham
STOC Editor
-
Red Race Tiger
Good post Graham.....but
Buy stating that two works cars have been reshelled i wasn't refering to 311
To comply with FIA reg's for 1966 311 had to loose the front wing vents, i presume that whilst it was having new wings fitted it got a colour change from Carnival Red to Midnight Blue. Strange one that? in such why would/did the Comp Dept go to all that bother with one of the oldest works car's when they had 668 at their dispossal? one of the last two rally car's built and already without wing vents and the correct new corporate colour:?: Blue.
Only then to cancel that Tiger programme completely in favour of the Imp's
Odd one that.
Buy stating that two works cars have been reshelled i wasn't refering to 311
To comply with FIA reg's for 1966 311 had to loose the front wing vents, i presume that whilst it was having new wings fitted it got a colour change from Carnival Red to Midnight Blue. Strange one that? in such why would/did the Comp Dept go to all that bother with one of the oldest works car's when they had 668 at their dispossal? one of the last two rally car's built and already without wing vents and the correct new corporate colour:?: Blue.
Only then to cancel that Tiger programme completely in favour of the Imp's
Odd one that.
"My point is that ADU 638B as an example, is known as Tiger. However it is a modified Alpine, fact. And as you stated works cars being reshelled is not a problem for me but for some it seems this act makes the car a fraud. Its all about personal perception and interpretation of the facts, not just the facts themselves. Its more complicated than just the facts as can be seen in the poll which is 50/50."
Hog,
ADU 638B, from what information I can find, is a Rootes built prototype for the Tiger. Once again, I have to ask you what point are you trying to make? Are you trying to say that because Rootes built it and not Jensen that the car is not a Tiger?
So in your view, prototypes or Le Mans race cars are not to be considered Tigers, is that correct?
You seem to be struggling with something that is obvious to most of us.
Hog,
ADU 638B, from what information I can find, is a Rootes built prototype for the Tiger. Once again, I have to ask you what point are you trying to make? Are you trying to say that because Rootes built it and not Jensen that the car is not a Tiger?
So in your view, prototypes or Le Mans race cars are not to be considered Tigers, is that correct?
You seem to be struggling with something that is obvious to most of us.
Someone on the C.A.T forum found these on e-bay UK.
Someone is trying to cash in on this discussion
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sunbeam-Alpin ... 4164e8ef58
Someone is trying to cash in on this discussion
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sunbeam-Alpin ... 4164e8ef58
Dude
Im saying as Graham reiterated. The car is a Tiger but it was built using an Alpine shell. I also think the South African built cars and the Williams & Pritchard cars are Tigers. All of these facts lend themselves to a reshell being acceptable, unless its you, who doesnt think they are Tigers.
And Jenson modified the prototypes. The first unquestionable Tiger is ADU311B but arguably its 5778KV
I think you are trying to read something into it that isnt there and arguing with yourself? Is that the view of 'most of you'?
Im saying as Graham reiterated. The car is a Tiger but it was built using an Alpine shell. I also think the South African built cars and the Williams & Pritchard cars are Tigers. All of these facts lend themselves to a reshell being acceptable, unless its you, who doesnt think they are Tigers.
And Jenson modified the prototypes. The first unquestionable Tiger is ADU311B but arguably its 5778KV
I think you are trying to read something into it that isnt there and arguing with yourself? Is that the view of 'most of you'?
"The car is a Tiger but it was built using an Alpine shell. I also think the South African built cars and the Williams & Pritchard cars are Tigers. All of these facts lend themselves to a reshell being acceptable, unless its you, who doesnt think they are Tigers."
Hog,
I have no idea of what you are trying to say. You state that South African assembled Tigers and "Williams & Pritchard cars" (William & Pritchard built Tigers? Do you meant the Lister built Le Mans cars?) are Tigers. Then you say "all of these facts" make an Alpine reshell of a Tiger acceptable. I guess to you it is okay to rebadge Alpines as Tigers but there are some people who may disagree.
Hog,
I have no idea of what you are trying to say. You state that South African assembled Tigers and "Williams & Pritchard cars" (William & Pritchard built Tigers? Do you meant the Lister built Le Mans cars?) are Tigers. Then you say "all of these facts" make an Alpine reshell of a Tiger acceptable. I guess to you it is okay to rebadge Alpines as Tigers but there are some people who may disagree.
Hi Graham,gvickery wrote:There's a bit to pick up on here.
- The Pressed Steel patent body plates on the Le Mans cars tell us 7734 KV started out with a SIII body and the ADU cars started out as SIV's.
- The three of them were built as factory sanctioned "Sunbeam Tigers" from new, albeit the name was settled on in April after the KV car had been built. The KV car derived from AF1 and in all probability the race cars started as 'body in white' shells.
- One of the works rally cars was re-bodied by the factory during the production period (AHP 294B) using the shell of another Tiger as carefully noted in the Rood book. The ID of the donor Tiger is known to the STOC Register. (Another works machine ADU 311B had sheet metal changed but it is not thought to have been re-bodied).
- All of the surviving AF development cars started out as SIV Alpines. They were though built by Jensen Motors into Tigers as precursors to production.
The way I see it is these early cars were never released, registered or run as Alpines; they never got that far before they became Tigers. None had any prehistory. Equally, it is quite true that the dozen SIV's given to JML had their chassis numbers removed and replaced with Tiger ID's but their SAL body tags were not changed for JAL tags. Presumably because Pressed Steel hadn't built the bodies of these cars as Tigers!
To my mind the key thing here is that the factory sanctioned the alteration of several new Alpines in to Tigers and instructed their sub-contractor Jensen Motors to do so. Yes, they are hybrids as they didn't start out as 'Tigers' at Pressed Steel as per the eventual production process. But Rootes the official manufacturer changed their 'type approval' credentials from Alpine to Tiger as they were permitted to.
So Simon I say ADU 638B was a modified Alpine and is a Sunbeam Tiger!
I'm not sure if/how this helps the 'debate' about 're-shelling' because it all happened at the 'dawn of the Tiger'.
My post of 29th April shows what direction I believe the Club should take as regards post-production period re-shelling.
Now where's that bottle of Merlot!!
Graham
STOC Editor
You used two words which says it all which relates to the two still trying to justify their points. The words "factory sanctioned" says it all. There is absolutely no arguing the point that they are not true Tiger's. They were all built at a time where Rootes gave the authority for them to be built, not some home/workshop built converted Alpine by some Tom, Dick or Harry.
Regards, Robin.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Mal wrote:Someone on the C.A.T forum found these on e-bay UK.
Someone is trying to cash in on this discussion
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sunbeam-Alpin ... 4164e8ef58
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE