Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

Post general questions relating to Tigers
martin172
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:14 pm

Post by martin172 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:10 pm

I think this has reached it's inevitable end.

It has the word discussion at the top but to be honest it has never been and never will be one.

There are a few people with different opinions on what is the right way to go but there isn't such a thing as a wrong opinion so that's where the "discussion" comes to an end.

No new people are going to contribute because I doubt anyone can be bothered to trawl through 42 pages of the stuff and considering the amount of browbeating are unlikely to want to get involved.

People have asked a few times for Graham's opinion.
I can't speak for him but I doubt he'd want to get dragged into the middle of this mess.

I think we are at a point now where this thread should be wiped and we start again with anyone who cares putting their point across with 1 post and let everyone make up their own minds what they feel is correct.

meadowhog
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: South Bucks

Post by meadowhog » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:08 am

martin172 wrote:I think this has reached it's inevitable end.

It has the word discussion at the top but to be honest it has never been and never will be one.

There are a few people with different opinions on what is the right way to go but there isn't such a thing as a wrong opinion so that's where the "discussion" comes to an end.

No new people are going to contribute because I doubt anyone can be bothered to trawl through 42 pages of the stuff and considering the amount of browbeating are unlikely to want to get involved.

People have asked a few times for Graham's opinion.
I can't speak for him but I doubt he'd want to get dragged into the middle of this mess.

I think we are at a point now where this thread should be wiped and we start again with anyone who cares putting their point across with 1 post and let everyone make up their own minds what they feel is correct.
Whats your opinion?

gtsmrt
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Post by gtsmrt » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:52 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:Robin,

You accussed me of getting stressy in my post's, mate calm down or your gonna blow a big fuse there....

I get the impression you may think Meadowdog and i are mates and in this topic for some sort of gain? Truth be told we've never even met and have nothing to gain other than common sense.

You said yourself that you didn't know why you continued to post on this topic? If you feel that way and you really cant handle others valid opinions....stop posting and leave, Simples.

You opinionate about the UK's DVLA when it reality it has diddly to do with you, not your concern really at all is it?

I have 100% no problem at all with oversea's posters period, except when they start laying down the law about what can and cannot do here in the UK where the car was built.

You can rant on as much as you like mate but the doors are locked, lights are out and your mumbling to yourself in the dark there fella. Everyone else has gone home :wink:

Ps, Nobody is going to Lock Out a topic just because YOU dont agree with it.

That's hardly democratic mate.
Me, I'm fine more than fine actually and I'm not afraid of anything either. I'm not the one trying to push people away because you can't give a convincing argument. As I said earlier, if a clear and concise argument can be put forward for re-shelling maybe we could get somewhere but I highly doubt it.
Maybe some people need to look a little closer to home before they point the finger. Sorry, but you won't get the satisfaction that easy. Just because people don't post, it doesn't mean you automatically win the debate. Not even close!!
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Tomaselli
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:03 pm
Location: Cheshire, North West England

Post by Tomaselli » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:44 am

martin172 wrote:I think this has reached it's inevitable end.
Indeed, we are getting close to that point, as we seem to redigesting the same arguments and so inevitably is now starting to become personal..... :shock:


gvickery wrote:Can we stop all this verbal slapping and cut out all the nagging self justification please. Yeah, and don't make things so flipping personal.
No names no pack drill but the censor will go to work if there is one more personal attack or deliberate wind-up spotted.

If you have made your point work it or leave it !!
There are no debate winners or losers here just different points of view.

Graham
STOC Editor
Hopefully there will not be a need to bring this useful topic to an end and so can I remind you all gentlemen to keep your posts relevant to the discussions, and accept that there WILL BE different points of view on what is a very 'heated' topic.

Gents, please do make it personal and just as importantly keep it clean - and hopefully we can entice new members/users to throw into the melting pot their views without the threat or fear of being verbally vindicated in public.

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:34 am

STOC,

Throughout this topic all i have only ever advocated is that someone with the skills workshop space and time could and should be able to make that choice between hours of fruitless welding or to rustfree reshell with decaration, emphasis on the DECLARATION. No deception, no fraud.

For my troubles iv'e been called a Racist, Dishonest and a Fraud. And the funny thing is i haven't even reshelled a Tiger, YET Just discussed the possible reasons for doing so.

The reaction's from some has been jaw droppingly nasty, so yes let's all start again, and keep it civil.


Paul

gtsmrt
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Post by gtsmrt » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:15 pm

Red Race Tiger wrote:STOC,

Throughout this topic all i have only ever advocated is that someone with the skills workshop space and time could and should be able to make that choice between hours of fruitless welding or to rustfree reshell with decaration, emphasis on the DECLARATION. No deception, no fraud.

For my troubles iv'e been called a Racist, Dishonest and a Fraud. And the funny thing is i haven't even reshelled a Tiger, YET Just discussed the possible reasons for doing so.

The reaction's from some has been jaw droppingly nasty, so yes let's all start again, and keep it civil.


Paul
Hmm... Interesting comments Paul, but I won't go into that (we both know why). Anyone reading this re-shell topic will know my views/opinions regarding re-shelling. If you are serious about starting fresh, the pro re-shelling fraternity need to formulate a new avenue of thought. The reason I say this is that there is still too many grey areas, regardless of DVLA rulings, new categories or declarations.
The primary issue that I see and many others with similar views, will always take exception to an Alpine that is Tiger modified to a equal or high standard to an original Jensen built Tiger (including ID transfer). As you know that is where the deception and fraud labels are thrown in irrespective of declaration. As the Alpine and Tiger uni-bodies are similar and as pointed out easily modified, a definitive and unmistakable divide is required.
I understand the reasoning behind re-shelling and the majority of people undertaking one are not doing so for financial gain (deception and fraud), but can you see there is a very fine line between the two. Hence, the reason for not swapping badging and ID's.
If a criteria can be put forward to cover these main points, I'm sure we will all be well on our way to an amicable and impartial outcome.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

0neoffive
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:23 am

It's a hobby after all

Post by 0neoffive » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:19 pm

A virgin Tiger will always remain a notch above the rest. I've been priviledged to have a few in the shop from time to time and even more honored to have owned one for a while. But, because we tend to play harder with our toys, most Tigers have repair history and some of it can be extensive. Mother nature and time also reduces any evidence of Jensen to dust quite often. The spirit of the hobby remains strong however and the skilled with time and dollars have reclaimed some fairly pathetic war weary toys. We've never re-shelled a Tiger, but have provided parts & extensive metal fabs to those who have. It remains to their integrity how the car is represented. Fraud remains fraud in any language.
We have also helped other hobbyists with Alpine conversions and find nothing wrong with providing the experience toward enjoyment of a V-8 Alpine. As previously posted many times before, they will never be a true Jensen Tiger . It is a hobby, $$$$, after all . . . . . .

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:50 pm

Guy's

I have at times enjoyed this topic, the views and the crossing of swords with members both Uk and worldwide.

My opinion's cannot change as i really do stand by them, and for that reason i choose not to add anything further.

Recently the fun debate disappeared and it all got a little to personal for me :wink:

garyv8tiger
Posts: 650
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:57 am

Post by garyv8tiger » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:44 pm

as everyone has had there say why not open a new thread with a vote for reshelling and against .just a vote .you go into the thread once and vote for or against? .it wont solve anything but will see how divided we are .

Tomaselli
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:03 pm
Location: Cheshire, North West England

Post by Tomaselli » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:50 pm

Good idea Gary, that would give us a useful statistic from the board and might just encourage new users to register to cast a vote. With perhaps one of the polled questons asking if you would like to see your Tiger go through a TAC (or equivalent) inspection, in the knowledge that you might not like the outcome......... :|

User avatar
gvickery
Site Admin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:45 pm
Location: Surrey

Post by gvickery » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:13 pm

I am not the sole 'arbiter' of this 'debate'. As often said there is no irrevocably right or wrong argument, except where relevant British law ('ass' or not) applies, just differing standpoints. It will be recalled that the thread asked of members "what constitutes an original Sunbeam Tiger....and sought the "views of those who believe there is a difference between an original Tiger and a re-shelled one and for the views of those who do not". My intention was to seek a consensus of the views of members...to listen to narrow arguments yes but to find out what is in the best interests of Club members as a whole.

So what is done to other marques or what is or is not permitted in other jurisdictions is only indirectly helpful as is much of the comment around ageing repairs etc, although I can understand why folk pose questions about the 'originality' of severe cut & shut vehicles. Nor are particularly helpful heavily defended minority opinions.

I have gathered there is a consensus on two points of principle - and to avoid building the pros & cans all over again - the guts of it are:

1. It should be possible for a member to distinguish a re-shelled Tiger from one that is not. In short to be able to access a means of authenticating his/her own car.

2. It should be possible for the Club to acknowledge Tigers that have been properly re-shelled for what they are and to mitigate against such cars being pariahs in our community.

Re-shelled Tigers have been a feature of the UK community for over 40 years, from those that were re-bodied in good faith when it wasn't viable to rebuild them with factory panels etc, to those built up from log books. The Club should be in a position to help members understand the difference.

To this end it is hoped the Club can soon:

1. Be positioned to formally authenticate Sunbeam Tigers - that is to say to determine whether assembly was by Jensen Motors Ltd

2. Adopt a method of recognition of re-shelled Sunbeam Tigers as substantially suggested by certain members at the outset of this thread.

I hope to be able to explain this more fully in the next issue of Cats Whiskers.

Graham
STOC Editor

meadowhog
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: South Bucks

Post by meadowhog » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:24 pm

Thanks Graham,

I too have mostly enjoyed this thread. I feel it has reached a conclusion an as I have nothing to add and will respectfully bow out. Thanks to all who contributed.

Cheers
Simon

gtsmrt
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Post by gtsmrt » Fri May 04, 2012 2:38 pm

To RRT (Paul),

Please don't take this the wrong way as I am not trying to be smart or disrespectful in any way, but I have read about the Tiger that was in your Family that was re-shelled/re-birthed. From what I have read, it would appear that you were very much against the re-birth of that Tiger. What has now changed, that you have also changed your view point?
Last edited by gtsmrt on Sat May 05, 2012 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Fri May 04, 2012 8:48 pm

Robin,

Mate get your facts 100% correct before you start to involve my fathers car AHP 295B, do your homework please before you begin to open that door, Otherwise you could make yourself look a little foolish.

I could easily write a good book on the car and it's ultimate destruction, but until STOC desides to compile a definative article or not on the subject i shall hold back.

I'd politely suggest you do the same :wink:

gtsmrt
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Post by gtsmrt » Sat May 05, 2012 5:35 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:Robin,

Mate get your facts 100% correct before you start to involve my fathers car AHP 295B, do your homework please before you begin to open that door, Otherwise you could make yourself look a little foolish.

I could easily write a good book on the car and it's ultimate destruction, but until STOC desides to compile a definative article or not on the subject i shall hold back.

I'd politely suggest you do the same :wink:
Just going by what you wrote earlier (maybe I'm reading into it differently). I wasn't pressing for information about the car or a good book... Just your differing view back then, but as I wrote I meant no disrespect.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Post Reply