Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

Post general questions relating to Tigers
meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:02 pm

It make no difference to me either way, but it may well soon become perfectly legal to reshell. Then what?

I think its time for a word from Graham.

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:26 pm

Reshelling a car is not fraud here in the UK,

As a Ford technician i personaly reshelled numerous vehicles that insurances companies chose to repair. It's not a practice that's done so much now with labour rates being what they are, but it was common.

And now with the changing policy of the DVLA it will legally open up the oppotunities for rebuilding classics with using pre used shells.

It's just common sense. :wink:

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:48 pm

Absolutely.

Why did this thread start going backwards? I thought the idea of reshelling had been pretty much agreed upon and put to bed.

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:58 pm

dude234 wrote:Hi Robin,

I don't know what you are rebutting from my statements. My position has always been the same and is rebodies are not genuine Rootes ordered and Jensen built Sunbeam tigers.

The problem always comes about when someone in their garage or shed decides to create or "save" a Sunbeam Tiger and tries to pass it off as factory built. No matter how you try to justify it, that is fraud.
Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't mean from myself but from others. I share the same sentiments, I just don't call them Tiger's. :)
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:21 pm

It has been put to bed,

It will become more widely accepted i'm sure. Thankfully here we're more open to it.

Some people on here still cannot accept that their "Tiger" is a direct variant of the humble "Alpine" which is a shame because sadly for them..... it is.

It is an iconic 60's sports car which at last recently is getting the limelight it deserves, which is why now SOME owners are getting twitchy about the re-shelling issue as they do not want to be associated with the humble "Alpine"

The Tiger is no Cobra, GT40 or Ferrari, under the limited mod's it's an Alpine. We could do well to accept that.

I go out into my workshop and look at my Alpine and Tiger and see the same car bar some very crude and easily carried out mods, why should it be such a crime to save either of these models with a replacement shell change? If anybody has the ability/skill to do it who are we (Any of us) to say NO you cannot do that?

Those that can't see past the U S lead TAC system with all it's faults and limitations stick with it, your welcome to it.

I cannot see it will get a foothold here in the UK, and will be a sad day if it does.

A declared shell change from one car into another shell is still a Tiger.....

BlackDog
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Post by BlackDog » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:56 am

I wonder what a reshelled '65 GT350 would be considered... ??

my guess wouldn't be a Shelby ... :roll:

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:44 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:It has been put to bed,

It will become more widely accepted i'm sure. Thankfully here we're more open to it.

Some people on here still cannot accept that their "Tiger" is a direct variant of the humble "Alpine" which is a shame because sadly for them..... it is.

It is an iconic 60's sports car which at last recently is getting the limelight it deserves, which is why now SOME owners are getting twitchy about the re-shelling issue as they do not want to be associated with the humble "Alpine"

The Tiger is no Cobra, GT40 or Ferrari, under the limited mod's it's an Alpine. We could do well to accept that.

I go out into my workshop and look at my Alpine and Tiger and see the same car bar some very crude and easily carried out mods, why should it be such a crime to save either of these models with a replacement shell change? If anybody has the ability/skill to do it who are we (Any of us) to say NO you cannot do that?

Those that can't see past the U S lead TAC system with all it's faults and limitations stick with it, your welcome to it.

I cannot see it will get a foothold here in the UK, and will be a sad day if it does.

A declared shell change from one car into another shell is still a Tiger.....
What do think will happen to that "limelight" that you talk about if re-shelling becomes common practice? Do you seriously think it will benefit the Tiger's cause? Your rationale is a little confusing. You talk about the Tiger being no Cobra, yet their makings are similar. So would you say a Cobra is no more than an Ace with crude and easily carried out mods? Maybe that is best answered by a Cobra owner. You say you have an Alpine and a Tiger, but all that it sounds like you are saying, is that you own two Alpine's. I truly hope that your DVLA think long and hard about the ramifications that re-shelling could bring and not just be some broad, ill-advised scheme to benefit the dishonest.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:41 pm

Robin,

To be fair i'm fed up with banging heads with you over this topic, best you stick with your TAC and i think we'll make up our own minds here.

What the UK DVLA decide wont affect you or the U S so no point worrying about that is there?

The only thing a Tiger has in common with the Cobra is a SMF engine and if it's an early Tiger the T10 gearbox. Other than that not much else.

Yes i do see a Tiger as a modified Alpine, nothing more nothing less. I see both cars as the same sheet metal with near on every thing else interchangable between the two.

And to answer Black dog, Shelby did make a batch of 66 GT350 convertibles back in the early 80's in association with "Hollywood Mustang" these cars were called continuation cars which strangely were ALL built on previously USED second hand bodyshells.....Now where have i heard that before?? Surely no this cannot be right as ALL these shells previously HAD A LIFE :?:

Oh but as long as "Shelby" did it that's OK then i guess......just as long as WE dont.

And as for the Ace and Cobra being the same car? Check out the spec on both Ace and Cobra, different ladder chassis, different wheel base, different track.....just 100% different.
The first unique Cobra prototype was built on an BRG AC Ace mock up which still survives, i know that car and the owner. :wink:

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:55 pm

And as for affecting prices and how a reshell could/would affect our cars?


Hasn't really dented the Lotus Cortina or Cooper S prices has it? and have you seen the prices of Mk1 Escort Twin Cams or RS2's :?:

It wont affect prices in the slightest.

I rest my case.... :shock:

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:18 pm

gtsmrt wrote:
What do think will happen to that "limelight" that you talk about if re-shelling becomes common practice? Do you seriously think it will benefit the Tiger's cause? Your rationale is a little confusing. You talk about the Tiger being no Cobra, yet their makings are similar. So would you say a Cobra is no more than an Ace with crude and easily carried out mods? Maybe that is best answered by a Cobra owner. You say you have an Alpine and a Tiger, but all that it sounds like you are saying, is that you own two Alpine's. I truly hope that your DVLA think long and hard about the ramifications that re-shelling could bring and not just be some broad, ill-advised scheme to benefit the dishonest.
As you have said before a reshell is fine if its declared, why all this going back on what you agreed. What are you really afraid of?

Currentley we have Alpine V8s and Tiger fraud. Reshelling to a standard will go a long way to eliminating the fraud and defining the Alpine V8 difference.

dude234
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Post by dude234 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:06 pm

Hello Red Race Tiger,


"And to answer Black dog, Shelby did make a batch of 66 GT350 convertibles back in the early 80's in association with "Hollywood Mustang" these cars were called continuation cars which strangely were ALL built on previously USED second hand bodyshells.....Now where have i heard that before?? Surely no this cannot be right as ALL these shells previously HAD A LIFE

Oh but as long as "Shelby" did it that's OK then i guess......just as long as WE dont. "

You are missing the point. Shelby sold continuation Shelby Mustangs as, now read carefully, **** CONTINUATION MUSTANGS ****!!!!. Shelby never made the claim that he made them under Ford contract back in the time period of 1965 - 1969. The cars are advertised and sold as continuation cars made circa whatever. And they are valued as modern day recreations which is considerably less than the "real" car. The same goes for his "continuation" Cobras.

Build as many Tigers from Alpine shells you would like but label them as modern built by your hand (or CONTINUATION Tigers if you prefer). And they will be valued as such.

What you want to do is to make or create Tigers from Alpines in your garage and expect them to be regarded as the real deal by the everyone else. You also want the cars to have the same value as a Rootes/Jensen built Tiger. For you to pass them off as Rootes built is fraudulent, no two ways about it.

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:14 pm

dude234 wrote:

What you want to do is to make or create Tigers from Alpines in your garage and expect them to be regarded as the real deal by the everyone else. You also want the cars to have the same value as a Rootes/Jensen built Tiger. For you to pass them off as Rootes built is fraudulent, no two ways about it.
Question for you:

When rebuilding a Tiger and you have a choice of two identical panels in the same condition. One is OEM and the other is carefully cut out of an Alpine and looks as good as new. Are you saying one is OK to use but the other isnt?

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:56 pm

Dude read the post fella,

No one on here's talking about knocking up Tigers in the garden shed....

Jesus Christ, what has the last 40 odd chuffin pages been all about? Re-shelling one rotten/writen off Tiger with a rust free doner(Alpine Shell) not making a back yard hill billy red neck car from a collection of bits found under a tree and calling it a Tiger.....

And for your information Shelby did call those convertibles Shelby GT350's coz iv'e just dug the article out from 1981, he even used continuation chassis numbers for them? How can that be on a used body shell :?:

dude234
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Post by dude234 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:33 am

Meadowhog,

"Question for you:

When rebuilding a Tiger and you have a choice of two identical panels in the same condition. One is OEM and the other is carefully cut out of an Alpine and looks as good as new. Are you saying one is OK to use but the other isnt?"

I don't know where you are going with this question but I would sell the NOS panel on Ebay (I'm sure it would bring a small fortune if it has Rootes labels), keep the panel on the Alpine and restore the Alpine (don't try to make it a Tiger, Alpines are fun cars), have beam's "bodyman" beat out a new panel and use it repairing (not rebuilding) the Tiger.


Beam,

"dude seems to forget that most conversions are not done in home garages, but are rebodied by shops with the knowledge and capability to do it right."

Most if not all are done by individuals that duplicate the look but not the exact build of a Rootes/Jensen Tiger and do it strictly to deceive the unknowing for monetary gain.

Beam, I am well aware your "bodyman", from Dayton, Ohio, has the knowledge and skill to probably get away with creating a Tiger that may fool a TAC inspector. So what? It is still a fake Tiger made circa 2012 in Dayton Ohio by a self employed American in his well equipped shop. Maybe he will be honest enough to mention that fact when he sells it.


Red Race,

"Jesus Christ, what has the last 40 odd chuffin pages been all about? Re-shelling one rotten/writen off Tiger with a rust free doner(Alpine Shell) not making a back yard hill billy red neck car from a collection of bits found under a tree and calling it a Tiger.....

And for your information Shelby did call those convertibles Shelby GT350's coz iv'e just dug the article out from 1981, he even used continuation chassis numbers for them? How can that be on a used body shell "

Look at your comment, Re-Sheeling using an Alpine shell, you keep on saying the samething over and over again. Be my guest and re-shell as many as you want but let the general public know that you RE_SHELLED the TIGER from an ALPINE!!!! You seem to have a hard time with that concept.

I'm from Missouri, show me where the "continuation" Shelby Mustangs and Cobras are listed and sold at auction or at private sales as genuine, circa 1960's, built in California (at Venice or LAX airport) cars with no disclaimer.

Shelby can call his cars by any name he wants, GT350 or anything else, as long as he owns the copyright to the name. He could call them Sunbeam Tiger if he owns the name. Shelby got into a lot of trouble with VINS with resultant lawsuts. Google it and find out for yourself. All of his "continuation" cars have new VINS different from what was built in the 1960's.

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:41 am

dude234 wrote:
I don't know where you are going with this question but I would sell the NOS panel on Ebay (I'm sure it would bring a small fortune if it has Rootes labels), keep the panel on the Alpine and restore the Alpine (don't try to make it a Tiger, Alpines are fun cars), have beam's "bodyman" beat out a new panel and use it repairing (not rebuilding) the Tiger.
Where im going is, you are saying you cant restore a Tiger because there are/ were virtually no Tiger panels made. They are all Alpine apart from bulkhead, top hat exhaust passthrough and few other bits. To my mind using Alpine parts to only restore Alpines and make even less authentic panels (copies) to restore/repair, does not make one bit of sense.

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