Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

Post general questions relating to Tigers
Mal
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:39 am
Location: NZ

Post by Mal » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:46 pm

If you imported that cars into NZ I doubt you would ever get them on the road :?
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:08 am

No i'm not implying that the TAC is encouraging dangerous behviour but i am saying that by giving this car a TAC sanctions dubious practices.

Buy the time the car is painted and trimmed it will look like any other restored "Tiger" but with the bonus of that all important TAC, any potential NEW buyer will take that as a green light and buy it because of this thing called the "TAC"

If he wasn't "cleud up" enough he'd have no idea that it was indeed two cars stitched together.....let alone a Mk2

This car will slip through the net and surface sometime soon and in my opinion if indeed it does have a TAC then it's worthless and a mockery of what it is trying to achieve.

I assume the TAC is supposed to prevent rebodied Tiger's from being passed off as genuine, so that MUST also apply here or the system is a farce.

The arguments on here with this subject have been that the Alpine and Tiger ARE NOT the same unibody? (Which i strongly disagree with) but if we accept they are NOT then this car by it's definition is 100% Alger.

Tiger front..... Alpine rear. Two completely different bodies ? Really :?:

Otherwise we could tack on any back end to the front and it would still be a Tiger with a "TAC"

I wonder what a Tiger would look like with an MGB back end glued on :?:


No really, surely common sense will prevail. The Alpine and Tiger DO both share the same body albeit with minor DIY modification's.

The question i'd like answered is this, out of the two cars who would prefer to own this two halved ALGER with the TAC? or the well presented Mk2 on this forum declared as a "Reshell"

As for values, as long as a car is disclosed as a reshell and dependent on build quality and finish i can't see why it wouldn't have the same value as a genuine car?


But ultimately the market would set the price.

garyv8tiger
Posts: 650
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:57 am

Post by garyv8tiger » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:52 pm

michael-king wrote:I got to say .. April 1 is a funny date to post.
its not as funny as 2 cars being stitched together and passing a tac .far safer to modify another shell even if it is an alpine .shouldnt even pass an mot .its a cut and shut

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:30 pm

WONDERFUL, exactly my point Gary.

If the High & Mighty "TAC" sanctions this vehicle then it isn't worth the paper it's writen on.....

And here's the divide, those that wish to chose the U S lead TAC should and can system carry on with all it's "Straight Ahead Only" blinkerd limitation's.

For those of us with a more open and sensible approach to keeping this marque alive i'm sure will chose a different route.

And April 1st or not? the joke for sure isn't on me.

Ash
Posts: 178
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Location: Nottingham

Post by Ash » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:08 pm

It strikes me that most of the views against reshelling is down to the fact that you are using a part that has its own identity as another vehicle?

Surely using half an Alpine shell amounts to the same thing but TAC is ok with this even though many Tiger modifications will need to be done?

I think the TAC guys have scored an "own goal" here as they are normally quick to label cars Algers and promote a puritanical position.

I wonder what happened to the back half of the Tiger? Maybe someone is going to restore it with an Alpine front half and sell it on as a genuine mk11? Would that be any worse? :?

The first thing I would do to that car is saw it in half again and do the job properly. I have not seen workmanship like that for a long time and for it to be eligable for TAC really damages the credibility of the system.

I agree with Gary and Paul on this one :)

meadowhog
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: South Bucks

Post by meadowhog » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:08 pm

Sorry Red race, I was joking. We see pretty much eye to eye on this. The value of this car is driving this sort of behaviour and I think if TAC was a responsible system it would update its testing criteria. We have both said there should be different groups into which cars should be placed. This one should be a 'wont pass on grounds of safety'

The law in the UK would probably deem this car unfit for road use. I have said a couple of times way back that if there were guidelines for whats acceptable to pass a TAC, I would add safety as part of it and this car would fail. If it were an Alpine and assuming the back end was smashed up it would be scrapped/cut up.

Its the value that is driving this behaviour and as the value is going up so should the level of TAC go up. It should be responsible and ensure that the level of workmanship is up to the job. The current application regs in the UK for when a reshell is carried out state that the work must be done to a satisfactory standard and checked by a competent person, mostly likely supported by a club.

If a club passes a car like this I would seriously reconsider the credibility of the current TAC system and how that club is run.

65beam
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Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:46 pm

rebody

Post by 65beam » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:28 am

it appears that the tac folks are starting to answer the question many have asked for many years. how far can you go to repair a tiger and also how do you repair it and with what? how much of the nose will be an alpine? are they saying keep as much as you can of the bulkhead and front inner fenders and that makes it a tiger? how will they repair the battery box area if this is a MK2? maybe some are starting to realise that there is a point where an alpine has to be sacrificed to keep a tiger.

michael-king
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Location: Melbourne Australia
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Post by michael-king » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:13 am

In the case of this MKII there are several questions.

1. How much of the original Tiger shell is left?
2. How much of the MKII specific body has been lost (different scenario to even a stock mKI/MKIA)
3. Has the car been reparied/will it be restored so that it is safe to drive?

I will start by saying, i personally would not want to own this car the way it is. I do not like the way it has been cut and shut, and while i can accept a car having a whole rear clip (rails, deck etc) transplanted i would want all the original joints to be unpicked and then the new section welded in as per original.. and would want to know/see exactly how it was done for my own safety/peace of mind.

Secondly.. while the car might be TAC'd if restored correctly (and that doesnt mean repro'ing the rear deck etc) I would not personally want to own a MKII that was missing one of the key differences between that model and all others.... but thats just my feelings, other may have no issue with it at all and that is their choice.

now the issues:
1. Obviously the rear 1/3 of the car is all alpine, there was some chat about the front clip also being alpine, but to be honest i didnt get to look much at the orignal postings when it came for sale... my opinion is not that of a TAC inspector so i cant speak for them.. but sure, i can see loosing the front valence,and guards and even the rear clip (though to the point pf the parcel shelf starts to get a bit high % wise for me) and it still being a Tiger. The central tub, from the scuttle bracings back ot the rear wheel wells is the "core" of what i consider the Tiger body.. but again.. thats me.. not speaking for TAC.

2. The rear deck going is always going to raise eyebrows on a MKII... it was a specific pressing to that model.. and would always raise questons about the car.. so while you might be able to deomstarte the car is a MKII.. restore it to pass TAC there will always be the initial doubt when people first see it.

3. The way the car is held together now is not great/safe from what the photos show. I would want that sorted as per my original post before getting in and driving it... that said.. TAC has nothing to do with roadworthy/safety.. its about ID'ing original jensen production methods.. you can have a car thats a compolete rusty hulk.. much like the car that started this thread originally (the one broken in half) it will pass TAC as it shows to be an original car... but restoring it and maintaining that original lineage becomes the issue... and here is where i differ from some of the people in this thread... and where certain people seem to not read/understand what i write..

there is a point at which the original car is gone.. it is beyond salvage and just becomes a donor of parts.. you are no longer saving the car, it's gone.. you are now recreating it using another car... and switching the ID's does nothng but to try and transplant the donors cars hsitory over the car (alpine normally) receiving the parts.

If someone found a nice straight tiger shell and decided to weld an alpine tunnel, front floors, and then insert all the alpine driveline into it then switch the VIN/SAL over into the Tiger shell.. it doesnt make the car that SIV alpine.. it is a MKI Tiger that now carrys a small % of alpine parts and alpine ID.

Id guess that if that happened people on this list would still say the car is a tger as they know the alpine parts were transplanted into it, yet when the reverse happens they dont say the car is still an alpine.

I would bet peoplewould have no issues with buying that car.. putting the tiger stuff back in switching VINs again and saying its the tiger.. yet they cant see the folly in saying that an alpine with tiger parts is a Tiger not an alpine.

Convert the cars.. just dont switch VIN's.. you cant transfer history.. sometimes you have to let things go.. once its dead its dead... it's like organ donation, it doesnt give the recipiant the donors past.



I dont think that it becomes a point at which an alpine
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:31 am

Micheal,

The reasoning is, ive said it before and i'll keep on saying it. NO ALPINE.....NO TIGER

The shells are one and the same with only very minor and crudely carried out mods. Thats a fact that we should all accept and get over.

To shell change a vehicle is not a crime wheather it's for accident damage or for restoration due to corrosion. A body is just a part along with 1000's of other parts required to build a car. And as such it can, and will be changed.

It doesn't change what the car is.....we have Alpine's carrying Tiger shells and vice versa so what? it's a personal choice.

Like you have stated the TAC will sanction a rusted hulk laying in a field with not a chance of being saved? what is the use of that?

As long as a reshelled car is declared as a reshell where's the problem? Give these cars a catagory, stop the finger pointing and lets all move on.


1 Top line without doubt Jenson built Tiger
2 Original Jenson produced car repaired/restored
3 Original Tiger carrying Vin+Jal (Reshelled)

4 Other ( Alpine V8 )


It's not rocket science.

michael-king
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Re: rebody

Post by michael-king » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:35 am

65beam wrote:michael,
my alpine has a lot of tiger panels on it and the blue series 5 was a MK2 shell. that means the values of the cars would be much higher by your reasoning.
Bob.. Hypothetically.. if you had taken a MKII tiger and then put an alpine tunnel/running gear in it.. made a battery hole and box then put SV VIN/SAL tags on it.. I bet they would still claim its a tiger.. just someone bucthered it... you could and these guys would happily convert the car back to a MKII as yes.. it is worth more that way... my point is that the ID of the original tub is where the cars ID stands.. i know of alpines here with tiger doors and guards and there are a heck of a lot of tigers with alpine front clips/rear clips on them.. they are still tigers.

What im saying is that if people converted a tiger into an alpine i bet the guys here would still say its a tiger shell... but they dont seem to call an alpine with tiger bits in it.. an alpine... which gets back to my orginal point.. people only swap VINs to carry over the history.. and hence the value. Nothing wrong with an alpine V8 just call it what it is 8)
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:11 pm

I think that Micheal needs to understand sheet metalwork.

The Tiger and Alpine or Alpine and Tiger shell is the SAME thing.

Albeit with very easily carried out DIY mods. It's not a different die stamping (apart from the specific MK2 lack of battery box) it's exactly the same tooling. Every thing else was converted by hand and not very well.

So it's no different to it being done today as long as it's done to a recongnised standard (however low that has to be) to duplicate what Jenson did :lol: :lol:

65beam
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:46 pm

rebody

Post by 65beam » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:24 pm

michael is one of several that need to see both tiger and alpine shells in a bare metal state so they might fully understand the mods done to the alpine shell to make a tiger. i have noticed over the years that the welds on the alpine body seem to be consistant where the jenson/tiger welds appear to be random although in the same general area based on the fact they were hand converted. does anyone have an idea how long it took to make the mods needed to the alpine shell before doing the finishing work to build a tiger shell ready for paint? how long did it take jenson from the time they started the mods on the alpine shell to when it was a finished tiger?

alpine5gt
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Re: rebody

Post by alpine5gt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:59 am

Maybe it depended on the day, if started on a Monday morning 5 hours, on a Wednesday say 4 hours and on a Friday about 3 hours.

0neoffive
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Quality & Man-Hour Calculations

Post by 0neoffive » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:49 pm

Consider the number of "lunch" available pubs across the street from Jensen and the available Irish work force of the era. . . . . . :roll:

meadowhog
Posts: 391
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Location: South Bucks

Post by meadowhog » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:44 pm

Cut off the pure tiger panels (which isnt much) and what are you left with? An Alpine shell with few dents and 25ish holes. Ow and of course some emotional attachment, in some cases lots.

I reckon it would take one person 8 hours to fit and modify. Less than half that if there were two.

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