TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

gtsmrt · Post by **gtsmrt** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:11 am

martin172 wrote:Hi Robin,
I'm just throwing ideas out there.
It's down to the head honchos to decide whether we try to improve the system or leave it as is.

I've had a quick root about on the 'net for ways of permanently IDing cars but I'm sure there are more and better ways out there.

I came across this

http://www.selectadna.co.uk/?gclid=CNzd ... tAoda2dE5Q

but it would involve carrying a microscope around when re-examining cars.

Personally I think that if people are being fleeced out of serious money, we should do our bit to try and prevent it.
Installing TAC is one and investigating if it can be beaten and rectifying that is another.

Hi Martin,

Nothing wrong with throwing around ideas. As you say, anything to help keep the Tiger's safe. Anything is possible I guess, even something like a microchip planted in a place that only TAC inspectors know of. Something tells me that the cost will be too prohibitive. Hopefully the powers that be, will sort something out soon.

Regards, Robin.

martin172 · Post by **martin172** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:23 am

Surprisingly, it's not.
The link I put up has a kit that will ID 100 items and it costs £120, so a little over £1 for each item and it doesn't have a monthly license fee.
But, you then have to buy a microscope to read the tags and some poor soul to do it.

lovejoy · Post by **lovejoy** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:45 pm

Hello again from a Broad (

) are you aware that all the Europe spec "Alpine 260 's " (read Export Tiger) had the B 947 chassis # punch - stamped into the bodyshell ( Graham Vickery can show you exactly where - cue pic, please Graham

, - into the bulkhead, as well as the rivetted body tag) for much the same reasons; surely very easy to accomplish, and totally irremovable without cutting that section out with a torch, whatever....
(goes back to hammock, again, with another rum punch....

)

65beam · Post by **65beam** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 pm

robin,
in order to plant a chip where only the tac guys would know may not work. did you know that tac inspections are done out in the open where anyone can watch? it's not a secret inspection. i've watched it happen many times. on early alpines the vin number was stamped in the wedge shaped support running across the bulkhead. it was maybe six to eight inches in from where the inner fender and the bulkhead tie together. is this where they stamped it on late tigers?

Mal · Post by **Mal** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:54 am

The chassis # is stamped as in this pic of my car, for the Alpine 260. The black rectangle top right.
My car is a 1965 RRO car but was first registered in Germany in 1966 so it has had it's chassis # stamped on the same.

tigermany · Post by **tigermany** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:18 pm

Hello Mal

This stamp was made once determined by a German TÜV engineer, as the car went to the Germany TÜV approval - TÜV is similar to the MOT in the UK. Usually had original "Europe Tiger / Alpine 260" riveted plaques like this one
http://www.oxp.de/Bild/0_0_52812_6_13_2 ... T0085.html
I think your Tigers got the VIN stamped in the past when it was imported to Germany and registered.

Mal - you do a great job with your Tiger - I would never have thought there is so much work to it.

Thomas

Mal · Post by **Mal** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:08 pm

Thanks Thomas, there was a lot more to do than met the eye.
The German tag on my car just has Sunbeam instead of Sunbeam 260.

Cheers Mal

Bottom Vin is the vin given to the car when first registered in NZ

Post by **gvickery** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:18 pm

Thomas and Mal

Here is another example of the TUV plate added to the ID of LRO FE Tigers exported to Germany.

Note on the Jensen chassis plate the customary font style of the die stamp(s) used uniquely by Jensen on their plates. For the record it is fixed down by its original rivets.

More generally for curious members - interestingly we know of a handful of Tigers that wear what I call 'Rootes' chassis plates like the example in Thomas's link. In fact that plate was almost certainly fixed to that 'French' Tiger at Ryton using dies stamped on Alpine chassis plates, and on the reverse as was the norm. It is not clear why these rarities popped up in the first place. Here are examples of standard Alpine plates:

Here are examples of 'Rootes' Tiger plates. They are not modern repros but the 'real thing'

The 'French' LRO is also fixed down by original revits.

I should imagine the 'Ryton puncher' of the 'French' plate was none to 'au-fait' with Jensen numbering order as the paint code has been punched in the middle of the engine number. The later two are better but still the fitter didn't attempt to place the colour code below the engine number, which of course for the Alpine are one and the same as the chassis number!

If anyone can add to this collection I would love to hear from you!!

Graham
STOC Editor

tigermany · Post by **tigermany** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Thank you Graham,

here is another plate from an original German Tiger - but LRX not LRO !?
These kind of added plates are made by the TUV and not by Rootes.

Thomas

vkxbob · Post by **vkxbob** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:54 pm

I don't know if anyone saw this in last Friday's Daily Telegraph about a 1930 Bentley Speed Six. Not sure if I'm putting the cat amongst the pigeons again, but here's the article:

Bentley Judges' vintage ruling

A vintage car can still be considered authentic even if many of its original parts have been replaced, the Appeal Court heard yesterday.

Mercedes Travis Brewer bought a £425,000 model described as "a 1930 Bentley Speed Six" but then succesfully sued the dealer and was awarded £90,000 when she discovered that only part of its chassis was original, and that the engine was a "reconsructed" standard 6.5-litre unit.

The dealer, Stanley Mann, claimed that Mrs Brewer, of Oakham, Rutland, was aware of the restoration before she bought it and challenged the award.

His lawyers told the Appeal Court that selling the car as "a 1930 Bentley Speed Six" did not imply that the vehicle was entirely original. Ordering a retrial, the judges ruled: "A Bentley Speed Six would, as it seems to us, be a Bentley Speed Six even if it had spent the whole of its life mouldering in a maharaja's garage, and disintegrating there into dilapidation, before being rebuilt."

The Speed Six is regarded as the finest vintage Bentley. It won at Le Mans in 1929 and 1930.

gtsmrt · Post by **gtsmrt** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:56 pm

Thanks for the post and I guess this is in the lines of what we have discussed in previous posts regarding FULL disclosure. Neglect to be truthful and this could be the result... a very expensive lesson.

meadowhog · Post by **meadowhog** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:32 pm

You guess wrong. The point is the judge said "A Bentley Speed Six would, as it seems to us, be a Bentley Speed Six even if it had spent the whole of its life mouldering in a maharaja's garage, and disintegrating there into dilapidation, before being rebuilt."Nothing to do with full disclosure as I pointed out in one of my previous postings, strangely enough about another Bentley,Old No1, the law favours the history not the physical 100%ness. NO stop it stop it stop, twitch twitch.

Now, I will never ever ever ever ever reply to this post again. Please someone post something even about their dead cats rabbit so my name doesnt show up as the last person to have left a message on this post. AAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Post by **gvickery** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:17 am

I'll oblige 'meadowhog' - this ruling doesn't obviate the debate here as it does not condone monocoque re-shelling or change the law in our particular regard.

Now about that cat story!

Graham
STOC Editor

Red Race Tiger · Post by **Red Race Tiger** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:29 pm

Very "Grey" area there Graham.

The ruling doesn't say either way.....Monocoque or not.

Which points back to previous posts about a "CAR" being it's ID element's.

How many "Rotten" Tiger's are there out there on life support? ie surviving just on a log book alone?? where the only real way of saviour is by a reshell?

Quite a few i'd guess and more than we'd all like to admit.

Maybe at present my opinions are not widely taken but in time im convinced common sense with prevail

65beam · Post by **65beam** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:09 pm

for what it's worth, if you go to the CAT website , you will find a MK 2 tiger that is for sale in california. it has been cut in half from side to side under the seats and a series 5 alpine back half was welded on. they show the welded seam in one photo. it has a front clip from a late model for repair to the front since it has no hinge panel, radiator support panel,etc. it has two front fenders and frame rails. they say it can be tac'ed. would this be called a rebody? is it real close to being an alger since so much of the car has been replaced with at least 3/4 of an alpine ? it appears that the tags have been removed from the car.