robin,
believe what you want. the truth rolls down the road in several colors. and a good body man with the knowledge of the cars can do it. i would much rather have a rust free rebody that has been dipped and the rust neutralised than a car that has had 2000 pounds of new metal added with the rust still active. that means more holes later. it never ends! why is there so much opposition to a rebody? jenson was not the only outside source to build cars sold by rootes and i don't see the rebody police tearing these other cars apart. why is that??? nobody has ever explained why the tiger is above the other outsourced production. ????????
TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.
Ash. The key word you use is 'new'. The market provides new AH 3000 shells http://www.northernhealey.co.uk/austin_ ... yshell.php at a price and within the law. As a result every subsequent buyer knows that what went before was junk and needed to be re-bodied. Or, a Healey 3000 owner can try to have / or do what JME, who are the best in their business, does to restore one. http://www.jmehealeys.co.uk/home%20page.html
Sadly, perhaps, there are no newly built Tiger shells!
Graham
Sadly, perhaps, there are no newly built Tiger shells!
Graham
-
garyv8tiger
- Posts: 650
- Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:57 am
That is a very good point Graham , so using a good used Healey chassis would cause a similar dilemma for their owners?gvickery wrote:Ash. The key word you use is 'new'. The market provides new AH 3000 shells http://www.northernhealey.co.uk/austin_ ... yshell.php at a price and within the law. As a result every subsequent buyer knows that what went before was junk and needed to be re-bodied. Or, a Healey 3000 owner can try to have / or do what JME, who are the best in their business, does to restore one. http://www.jmehealeys.co.uk/home%20page.html
Sadly, perhaps, there are no newly built Tiger shells!
Graham
As no new Tiger shells are availible people are forced into breaking the law to save a car otherwise consigned to the scrap heap. Shame
65Sunbeam It has I believe been said before - you are quite entitled to do exactly what you want any way you like with your cars and for all I know re-shell em too in the USA. No one here is saying you shouldn't and yes it is totally your business. That is what you want and that is what you have.
In this country you may not pass off a Sunbeam Tiger that has been re-shelled using an Alpine body - no matter how imperfect the Tiger and rust free the Alpine may be - and sell it to some else as a 'Sunbeam Tiger'.
No matter how much or how long folk bang on justifying re-shelling it is illegal here and no buyer (and I encounter them every week) - irrespective of UK law - looking for a Sunbeam Tiger wants a re-shelled example UNLESS that is made perfectly plain in the selling particulars.
I look forward to when the British law is changed to recognise re-bodying (as covered in earlier posts) that will set them up with a legal identity.
Graham
STOC Editor
In this country you may not pass off a Sunbeam Tiger that has been re-shelled using an Alpine body - no matter how imperfect the Tiger and rust free the Alpine may be - and sell it to some else as a 'Sunbeam Tiger'.
No matter how much or how long folk bang on justifying re-shelling it is illegal here and no buyer (and I encounter them every week) - irrespective of UK law - looking for a Sunbeam Tiger wants a re-shelled example UNLESS that is made perfectly plain in the selling particulars.
I look forward to when the British law is changed to recognise re-bodying (as covered in earlier posts) that will set them up with a legal identity.
Graham
STOC Editor
-
tigerman7347
- Posts: 216
- Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:52 pm
- Location: Devon
Reshelling
Well said Graham.
Ash. A tender thought but no-one is forced to break the law. The eBay Tiger - that kicked this whole thread off - drawing a £6000 bid was it, stunned loads of people and its remains are heading for a re-shell. Sure as the sun sets when it next comes to the market it will be offered as a 'Sunbeam Tiger'.
What odds will anyone give me that the selling particulars will start with...."In the same ownership for 42 years, this Tiger spent the last 20 years in a garden with apple trees growing through it eventually breaking its back as it rusted out until it was retrieved to my facility in 10 crates..... now re-shelled & rebuilt this wonderful example of the marque etc etc"
I say that it is odds on we'll simply see, "This wonderful example of the marque...."
Graham
What odds will anyone give me that the selling particulars will start with...."In the same ownership for 42 years, this Tiger spent the last 20 years in a garden with apple trees growing through it eventually breaking its back as it rusted out until it was retrieved to my facility in 10 crates..... now re-shelled & rebuilt this wonderful example of the marque etc etc"
I say that it is odds on we'll simply see, "This wonderful example of the marque...."
Graham
tiger
graham,
a lot of things are done different here. in the state i live in there are no yearly inspections of any kind. we can license the car for a period of 50 years. and i'm glad you agree i can do what i want. maybe you have seen a car i may have rebodied. whatever the title reads is what it is sold as. my series 4 title reads 1965 ROOTS ,the blue series 5 reads 1967 ROOTS( california car ), the red lemans reads 1963 SUMBEAM (maryland car ), the moonstone lemans reads 1963 ROOTS (maryland car ),the other series 5 reads 1966 SUNBEAM, the RHD lemans reads 1963 SUNBEAM HARRINGTON GT (UK import), the 1969 ALPINE reads 1969 ROOTES, the red 1969 GT reads 1969 SUNBEAM, and the list goes on with the 21 titles. the tiger title says nothing about being a tiger either. notice the spelling of some of the names. nowhere on the titles does it say that the cars are alpines or tiger. the only one that has a title telling specifics is the lemans that was originally sold in the UK. the registration that i would show a cop also reads the same as listed above. when one of my lemans was hit in a sears parking lot and the cop looked at the registration he had no idea what he was looking at. didn't make any difference. it was legal. thank gosh my hagerty agent owns tigers and knows what the cars are. i guess my point is that it seems things are a little cloudy here. not like what you deal with. new owners would know it ws an alpine or tiger but that's not what they bought. just make sure the vin number on the title matches the car vin plate.
a lot of things are done different here. in the state i live in there are no yearly inspections of any kind. we can license the car for a period of 50 years. and i'm glad you agree i can do what i want. maybe you have seen a car i may have rebodied. whatever the title reads is what it is sold as. my series 4 title reads 1965 ROOTS ,the blue series 5 reads 1967 ROOTS( california car ), the red lemans reads 1963 SUMBEAM (maryland car ), the moonstone lemans reads 1963 ROOTS (maryland car ),the other series 5 reads 1966 SUNBEAM, the RHD lemans reads 1963 SUNBEAM HARRINGTON GT (UK import), the 1969 ALPINE reads 1969 ROOTES, the red 1969 GT reads 1969 SUNBEAM, and the list goes on with the 21 titles. the tiger title says nothing about being a tiger either. notice the spelling of some of the names. nowhere on the titles does it say that the cars are alpines or tiger. the only one that has a title telling specifics is the lemans that was originally sold in the UK. the registration that i would show a cop also reads the same as listed above. when one of my lemans was hit in a sears parking lot and the cop looked at the registration he had no idea what he was looking at. didn't make any difference. it was legal. thank gosh my hagerty agent owns tigers and knows what the cars are. i guess my point is that it seems things are a little cloudy here. not like what you deal with. new owners would know it ws an alpine or tiger but that's not what they bought. just make sure the vin number on the title matches the car vin plate.
Re: tiger
If you think you know more than the TAC people why not help them? By keeping these fakes a secret, you are no better than the people who built them. Read the previous post's and you will see there is no problems with a re-body. It's the re-tagging that's the issue and calling it something it is not. Last time I checked this was a Tiger specific forum and the topic is not about other models.65beam wrote:robin,
believe what you want. the truth rolls down the road in several colors. and a good body man with the knowledge of the cars can do it. i would much rather have a rust free rebody that has been dipped and the rust neutralised than a car that has had 2000 pounds of new metal added with the rust still active. that means more holes later. it never ends! why is there so much opposition to a rebody? jenson was not the only outside source to build cars sold by rootes and i don't see the rebody police tearing these other cars apart. why is that??? nobody has ever explained why the tiger is above the other outsourced production. ????????
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Re: Reshelling
I'll second that.tigerman7347 wrote:Well said Graham.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
I have been following this thread with interest and would like to add my view, as someone who has owned a tiger for 14 years but doesn’t have the mechanical knowledge and background of many writers to this list. I don’t think it will change the cyclical argument, if I where an Alger owner I could see myself arguing fervently that an Alpine rebody was no impediment to it being seen as a Tiger, as a Jenson Tiger owner I would argue the opposite.
Many years ago I owned a replica 427 Shelby cobra. I was extremely proud of it. It was immensely fast and as replica’s go looked period. As I read up on real cobras I started putting real bits on it, badges, reverse speedo, period number plates etc. When it was parked in the street I would always get the “nice car mate must be worth a packet” and I would always make a point of saying no it’s not real it’s a southern roadcraft replica. One day an American family stopped me, “a real 427! When I was a child I sat in one back home, is it ok for my son to sit in it? Before long they had their photos and with profuse thanks had gone. I realised that I hadn’t given my apology and let pass that this 2 year old fibreglass body with Rover engine, MG steering rack and Jaguar mechanicals was a real Shelby 1967 car. The fact that it was a good looking, fast well handling car wasn’t enough, why didn’t I just buy a Golf GTI ? The more I thought about this the more I thought I would willingly swop my 300bhp pride and joy for a real Austin Allegro! Talking to other ex replica car owners this was a familiar evolutionary path loving V8 engines but becoming dillusioned with a car that at the end of the day had no history and just said to the world that you couldn’t afford the real thing, this usually resulted in a move to the TVR Griffith.
So the hunt was on for a real sports car, I loved the Shelby story the idea of a small British car with a large American V8 so I looked up real Cobra prices! Now that a real Cobra was well and truly out of the question I did some research and came up with the Sunbeam Tiger. I spotted an add for a mint Tiger, so went to look and yes a shiny red, as new, Sunbeam Tiger. The owner, a pleasant middle class family man over tea and cakes enthused about tigers, however, a few things made me uneasy, getting rid of the car because it was too noisy in the village (he had raised the possibility of swapping with my cobra!), lowering his asking price before I had started negotiating, but most of all he had recently been to a motoring event and had not wanted to park up with other Sunbeam tigers. I looked around to find if their was a tiger owners club for advice, found STOC and managed to get one of their knowledgeable experts , a Mr Dave Muteham, to give it an inspection . Being pressured by the owner to make an offer, “other people are coming to look at it”, I couldn’t wait for Dave’s written report so gave him a ring . “It’s a wrong’un mate, wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole”. Looking now at Dave’s report it must have been easy meat with someone of his experience!
I came so close to buying that car, if I had I would have been bitterly disappointed . I would have thrown money at it to make it look like a real tiger, having the various bits of welding done as my knowledge grew, but I would have reached the conclusion that even if I had a million pounds to spend this was never going to be a car that existed as a tiger in the 60’s. I believe I would have restored it as an Alpine, having seen a holby engined Alpine on a test track day that would have been satisfying. This made me think about not only why I wanted a Tiger but for that matter any classic car and the importance of it being the real thing.
If you think about it, it can’t be performance, handling, braking , comfort, build quality, fuel economy, NCAPP safety features, galvanised body, warranty or nearby proximity of a Rootes dealership. You can pay under £5k for a 2002 Subaru Imprezza STI with a prodrive performance pack that over cross country would make the most exotic of 60’s sports cars look like asthmatic invalid carriages. So if you are not using the normal criteria that you would use to buy a car what is left. Well the classic could well go up in value but this isn’t guaranteed and a few big rust bills can take a chunk out of this, maybe as a static exhibit, automotive art, like e-types you see in design museums. What is left are the intangibles, character, soul and history and for these the car has to be real.
My first car was a Triumph TR7, it was the middle of the 80’s, this was a car that was now old rusty and not regarded with any acclaim. Turn your rusty nail into a road rocket was the advert, for under £2k you could drop a rover 3.5 V8 into your car , handling, brakes and insurers could be dealt with later. What was interesting was no one I knew who did this went on to do the further changes and claim it to be a TR8, even though outwardly it was just minor bits of trim and wheels, you where happy with a TR7 V8 sticker for the boot. You had transformed your car and where happily out on the roads annoying Porsche owners. I would guess a similar scenario occurred when the Alpine had become just an old car ready for the scrap heap and the owner had dropped a V8 in. It’s a pity that now, high performance is so cheaply available off the shelf (see Subaru), that this hot rodding your motor may well disappear in history. The point I am making is that the people who did this probably didn’t have the funds for a rip roaring sports car and where happy to make the conversion just so they could blast up the road with the best of them. This desire to have a fast car is very understandable; however the desire to continue to change your car so you can pass it off as a different car, whether TR8 or Tiger comes from a different mindset and is less understandable.
I got my tiger in the end, someone who imported LHD British classis from America wanted my replica cobra (just the engine for his racing Morgan, I think he through the rest away) at the back of his garage, amongst the Triumphs and MGB’s was a shiny red Californian Tiger , this checked out and a swap was done.
Last year I went on holiday to California, hired a convertible and it made me think than back in the 60’s, whilst I was a boy in rain lashed Manchester, my very own tiger might have done my journey, roaring up highway 1 in the Californian sun to LA, cruising around the Hollywood hills or parked outside a diner in the twilight with the music of Janis Joplin or the Doors in the background . My car is imbued with its history, even physically marked, the interior is faded from sitting out in sunshine we don’t have in the UK, it is still LHD from being an export car.
The Tiger is so much part of the family and will never be sold, it will keep its 4 speed box, 260 engine and remain LHD. My wife and I hope to take it back to America to drive route 66 and the coast roads of California. If, whilst its parked up, I get chatting with someone who owned a tiger in the 60’s (as you do) and this could be that very car, I don’t need to explain that it couldn’t possibly be, it didn’t exist as such at that time, I can truthfully reply it may well be, and he can sit in it if he likes, it is the real deal.
So in conclusion I think there is certainly a requirement for some sort of TAC system in the UK. The people writing to this forum are well informed and are unlikely to buy an Alger. It is the new enthusiast who before buying his first Tiger, having researched that body work condition is all, falls for the Alger’s charms. However it will affect us all, as values continue to, hopefully rise, this uncertainty that hangs over a Tiger purchase, will attract more attention and will start to cap prices. I have noticed already in a few car magazines this very question mark being a negative against buying a Tiger over other classics.
With the 50th anniversary of the Tiger coming up perhaps this is the time for STOC to take the lead and resolve this issue.This would be a true Birthday present for Tiger owners old and new.
Many years ago I owned a replica 427 Shelby cobra. I was extremely proud of it. It was immensely fast and as replica’s go looked period. As I read up on real cobras I started putting real bits on it, badges, reverse speedo, period number plates etc. When it was parked in the street I would always get the “nice car mate must be worth a packet” and I would always make a point of saying no it’s not real it’s a southern roadcraft replica. One day an American family stopped me, “a real 427! When I was a child I sat in one back home, is it ok for my son to sit in it? Before long they had their photos and with profuse thanks had gone. I realised that I hadn’t given my apology and let pass that this 2 year old fibreglass body with Rover engine, MG steering rack and Jaguar mechanicals was a real Shelby 1967 car. The fact that it was a good looking, fast well handling car wasn’t enough, why didn’t I just buy a Golf GTI ? The more I thought about this the more I thought I would willingly swop my 300bhp pride and joy for a real Austin Allegro! Talking to other ex replica car owners this was a familiar evolutionary path loving V8 engines but becoming dillusioned with a car that at the end of the day had no history and just said to the world that you couldn’t afford the real thing, this usually resulted in a move to the TVR Griffith.
So the hunt was on for a real sports car, I loved the Shelby story the idea of a small British car with a large American V8 so I looked up real Cobra prices! Now that a real Cobra was well and truly out of the question I did some research and came up with the Sunbeam Tiger. I spotted an add for a mint Tiger, so went to look and yes a shiny red, as new, Sunbeam Tiger. The owner, a pleasant middle class family man over tea and cakes enthused about tigers, however, a few things made me uneasy, getting rid of the car because it was too noisy in the village (he had raised the possibility of swapping with my cobra!), lowering his asking price before I had started negotiating, but most of all he had recently been to a motoring event and had not wanted to park up with other Sunbeam tigers. I looked around to find if their was a tiger owners club for advice, found STOC and managed to get one of their knowledgeable experts , a Mr Dave Muteham, to give it an inspection . Being pressured by the owner to make an offer, “other people are coming to look at it”, I couldn’t wait for Dave’s written report so gave him a ring . “It’s a wrong’un mate, wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole”. Looking now at Dave’s report it must have been easy meat with someone of his experience!
I came so close to buying that car, if I had I would have been bitterly disappointed . I would have thrown money at it to make it look like a real tiger, having the various bits of welding done as my knowledge grew, but I would have reached the conclusion that even if I had a million pounds to spend this was never going to be a car that existed as a tiger in the 60’s. I believe I would have restored it as an Alpine, having seen a holby engined Alpine on a test track day that would have been satisfying. This made me think about not only why I wanted a Tiger but for that matter any classic car and the importance of it being the real thing.
If you think about it, it can’t be performance, handling, braking , comfort, build quality, fuel economy, NCAPP safety features, galvanised body, warranty or nearby proximity of a Rootes dealership. You can pay under £5k for a 2002 Subaru Imprezza STI with a prodrive performance pack that over cross country would make the most exotic of 60’s sports cars look like asthmatic invalid carriages. So if you are not using the normal criteria that you would use to buy a car what is left. Well the classic could well go up in value but this isn’t guaranteed and a few big rust bills can take a chunk out of this, maybe as a static exhibit, automotive art, like e-types you see in design museums. What is left are the intangibles, character, soul and history and for these the car has to be real.
My first car was a Triumph TR7, it was the middle of the 80’s, this was a car that was now old rusty and not regarded with any acclaim. Turn your rusty nail into a road rocket was the advert, for under £2k you could drop a rover 3.5 V8 into your car , handling, brakes and insurers could be dealt with later. What was interesting was no one I knew who did this went on to do the further changes and claim it to be a TR8, even though outwardly it was just minor bits of trim and wheels, you where happy with a TR7 V8 sticker for the boot. You had transformed your car and where happily out on the roads annoying Porsche owners. I would guess a similar scenario occurred when the Alpine had become just an old car ready for the scrap heap and the owner had dropped a V8 in. It’s a pity that now, high performance is so cheaply available off the shelf (see Subaru), that this hot rodding your motor may well disappear in history. The point I am making is that the people who did this probably didn’t have the funds for a rip roaring sports car and where happy to make the conversion just so they could blast up the road with the best of them. This desire to have a fast car is very understandable; however the desire to continue to change your car so you can pass it off as a different car, whether TR8 or Tiger comes from a different mindset and is less understandable.
I got my tiger in the end, someone who imported LHD British classis from America wanted my replica cobra (just the engine for his racing Morgan, I think he through the rest away) at the back of his garage, amongst the Triumphs and MGB’s was a shiny red Californian Tiger , this checked out and a swap was done.
Last year I went on holiday to California, hired a convertible and it made me think than back in the 60’s, whilst I was a boy in rain lashed Manchester, my very own tiger might have done my journey, roaring up highway 1 in the Californian sun to LA, cruising around the Hollywood hills or parked outside a diner in the twilight with the music of Janis Joplin or the Doors in the background . My car is imbued with its history, even physically marked, the interior is faded from sitting out in sunshine we don’t have in the UK, it is still LHD from being an export car.
The Tiger is so much part of the family and will never be sold, it will keep its 4 speed box, 260 engine and remain LHD. My wife and I hope to take it back to America to drive route 66 and the coast roads of California. If, whilst its parked up, I get chatting with someone who owned a tiger in the 60’s (as you do) and this could be that very car, I don’t need to explain that it couldn’t possibly be, it didn’t exist as such at that time, I can truthfully reply it may well be, and he can sit in it if he likes, it is the real deal.
So in conclusion I think there is certainly a requirement for some sort of TAC system in the UK. The people writing to this forum are well informed and are unlikely to buy an Alger. It is the new enthusiast who before buying his first Tiger, having researched that body work condition is all, falls for the Alger’s charms. However it will affect us all, as values continue to, hopefully rise, this uncertainty that hangs over a Tiger purchase, will attract more attention and will start to cap prices. I have noticed already in a few car magazines this very question mark being a negative against buying a Tiger over other classics.
With the 50th anniversary of the Tiger coming up perhaps this is the time for STOC to take the lead and resolve this issue.This would be a true Birthday present for Tiger owners old and new.
Hi Mike,
Thank you for sharing your experiences and views with experiences from both points of view. I think everyone at some stage wished for their stock standard car was the exotic sporty model everyone longed for. I'm all for saving our Marque, but as you stated there is already this stigma forming over our Tiger's. I just hope a few of these re-body advocates take the time to digest your views. There is certainly nothing like the real thing, warts and all.
Regards, Robin.
Thank you for sharing your experiences and views with experiences from both points of view. I think everyone at some stage wished for their stock standard car was the exotic sporty model everyone longed for. I'm all for saving our Marque, but as you stated there is already this stigma forming over our Tiger's. I just hope a few of these re-body advocates take the time to digest your views. There is certainly nothing like the real thing, warts and all.
Regards, Robin.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE