TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

Tigerman · Post by **Tigerman** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:20 am

Actually yes. That exhibit could today obtain a TAC certificate as is and after panel replacements, since the monocoque is the progeny of Jensen Motors of West Bromwich not Ryton on Dunsmore.

But when that photo was taken in the 1980's anything went and in this Tiger's case its monocoque went; to be replaced....wait for it....with the shell of another Tiger with Jensen DNA.

Ironically, the end result fetched up as a replica of a famous Tiger!!

Red Race Tiger · Post by **Red Race Tiger** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:30 am

Oh go on then which one

The suspense is too much.....

Red Race Tiger · Post by **Red Race Tiger** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:17 am

So what your saying here is that this Tiger was re-shelled with ANOTHER tiger shell? AND it's still recognised by the TAC club? It's a car with lost history as the body it has now has IS NOT the one it left JENSON with? So in that case it's no different to a replacemnet body from an Alpine then is it

And according to our UK legislation body the DVLA this car with a body change should have been designated a "Q" plate. "Q" for not quite right.

This whole topic of re-shelling, re-bodying is a mockery. If a car is being saved at great expense to the owner/restorer who are we ANY of us including those that refuse to show their true identity's on here to right to say what can and what cannot be done.

Seem's to me what we're saying on here is that if a Tiger still retains it's rear bulkhead and front firewall it's still a Tiger? even though the bottom's wholey rottted away and been replaced you can change the whole front end FROM and Alpine and it's STILL a Tiger, change the boot floor, rear wings and valance, bonnet boot and doors FROM an Alpine and it's STILL a Tiger???

It's the same body bar some very crude mod's, the Tiger is a direct evolution from an Alpine. Accept it.

What is it about this subject that people find so hard to grasp

If this de-vision an arguing is what we could expect from "TAC" here in the UK best it's stay's in the land of the free.

Mal · Post by **Mal** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:04 am

So what your saying here is that this Tiger was re-shelled with ANOTHER tiger shell? AND it's still recognised by the TAC club? It's a car with lost history as the body it has now has IS NOT the one it left JENSON with? So in that case it's no different to a replacemnet body from an Alpine then is it

It is different because the replacement body was a Tiger that did go through Jensen.
You would think if the donor body still had it's tags then the car would maintain the new bodies ID, but would not be a matching #'s car.

If the replacement body had lost it's tags and the ones from the rusted out car were transfered it would be a rebody with a original Tiger body.

Seem's to me what we're saying on here is that if a Tiger still retains it's rear bulkhead and front firewall it's still a Tiger? even though the bottom's wholey rottted away and been replaced you can change the whole front end FROM and Alpine and it's STILL a Tiger, change the boot floor, rear wings and valance, bonnet boot and doors FROM an Alpine and it's STILL a Tiger???

No ones going to do that. The replacement panels would be patch panels or new replacement or made up by the panel beater. Maybe the doors and front gaurds would be sourced from an Alpine if unrepairable. Other than that they are going to get a complete Alpine body and transfere the Tiger parts.

People are always going to have differing opinions on the subject, but the mods may have been crude but they were made by Jensen. I have no problem with someone reshelling a Tiger with the running gear minus the engine from one car. But it is does not belong in the same category as a genuine untouched or restored car.

gtsmrt · Post by **gtsmrt** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:15 am

Bobbybutton wrote:Robin

That's so simple it's errrr...... *simple*

Hi Bobby,

Well it is that simple... you have an Alpine or a Tiger as I said previously. Sure sometimes there can be some grey areas, as in a heavily rusted car but in reality that doesn't have to be grey either. By adding different categories it just confuses people more. If you have to re-shell just be truthful and be open about what it is. There is no harm in saying you simply couldn't save the poor damaged Tiger. I certainly would not have an issue with that. I also honestly think the majority of you all in the UK would rather something simple without all the categories.

Regards, Robin.

gtsmrt · Post by **gtsmrt** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:40 am

Tim wrote:Robin, agree 100%. Left the factory as an Alpine, Alpine ID. Left the factory as a Tiger, Tiger ID.

Thank you Tim. I guest with the Alpine/Tiger monocoque it's a bit harder to do that with very little bolt on stuff. The only reason that Tiger or Alpine owners stick their nose up at Alpine conversions is when they are done to deceive. You still have the purists that don't like anything but stock, but overall are widely accepted.

Regards, Robin.

Tigerman · Post by **Tigerman** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:22 am

RRT

I said the Tiger would pass a TAC inspection in that state and afterwards if it had been re-panelled / restored.

I did not say that being re-shelled with a Tiger body it would pass a TAC inspection.

Please read what is said and not what you want to see!

gtsmrt · Post by **gtsmrt** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:39 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:If this de-vision an arguing is what we could expect from "TAC" here in the UK best it's stay's in the land of the free.

Last time I checked, isn't the UK a democracy as well? Anyone would think you don't have a say, but unfortunately majority rules in most cases. What exactly are you afraid of with a TAC anyway not that it is part of this discussion anyway?

meadowhog · Post by **meadowhog** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:04 pm

Tigerman wrote:RRT

I said the Tiger would pass a TAC inspection in that state and afterwards if it had been re-panelled / restored.

I did not say that being re-shelled with a Tiger body it would pass a TAC inspection.

Please read what is said and not what you want to see!

Could you give us your opinion as to why a Tiger reshelled with a Tiger would not pass a TAC?

I could see why, but only due to the methods used. As I said earlier with the rear of MALs car, but his is still clearly a Tiger

meadowhog · Post by **meadowhog** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:16 pm

Mal wrote:People are always going to have differing opinions on the subject, but the mods may have been crude but they were made by Jensen. I have no problem with someone reshelling a Tiger with the running gear minus the engine from one car. But it is does not belong in the same category as a genuine untouched or restored car.

Im sure people have and will. Ive given up on concensus as to what is acceptable. Besides a car is more original after using Alpine parts rather than patch panels.

I agree with categorising but someone doesnt.

michael-king · Post by **michael-king** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:47 pm

meadowhog wrote:
Tigerman wrote:RRT

I said the Tiger would pass a TAC inspection in that state and afterwards if it had been re-panelled / restored.

I did not say that being re-shelled with a Tiger body it would pass a TAC inspection.

Please read what is said and not what you want to see!
Could you give us your opinion as to why a Tiger reshelled with a Tiger would not pass a TAC?

I could see why, but only due to the methods used. As I said earlier with the rear of MALs car, but his is still clearly a Tiger

The TAC system authenticates an original Tiger body, however that doesnt mean they condone the switching of VIN's between Tigers. They do not approve of getting a tiger then switching across the VIn of another. If they can see that nu,mbers have been swicthed they will not link the ID with te car.. ie: a MKIA/MKII Vin on a MKI car or vice versa. Also if it becomes clear that a cars VIN has been switched they will void the VIN.

If you go to norm millers website and look through the TAC lists and the alger lists there are a few examples of such issues. There was a car that passed TAC, MKI, serial numebr correct for the type of body.. the VIN tag had been home made, but thats happened on a few cars.. what then came up was a MKI had already been TAC'd with that VIN. The first car had the matching gearbox and diff.. at the end of the day the owner of car #2 admited he lost the VIN tags from his car so made up the numbers.. the car was delisted for that VIN.. while the car is a factory bodied Tiger it cant be linked to that VIN..

Same goes for a stolen tiger MKIA that fronted up using a different VIN in Europe.. then acquired the VIN off a MKII and appeared in another country..(car had not been TAC'd) the false VIN's get delisted.

Long and the short lots of people are making claims about "flaws" in the TAC system.. before everyone does this its worth gogin to the Pacific Tiger clubs write up and Norm Millers to see what/how the system deals with the process.

Also from what i understand the STOC has adopted the TAC system.. so if you dont like it.. dont get your car inspected and i guess there is no problem.

Robin O'dell has been very vocal about the value of the TAC system in this thread, yet he has said he has no intention of getting his car inspected.... so i guess you can agree or disagree with it but you are not obliged to run the gauntlet if you dont feel like it or are concerened about your car.

michael-king · Post by **michael-king** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:03 pm

Red Race Tiger wrote: It's the same body bar some very crude mod's, the Tiger is a direct evolution from an Alpine. Accept it.

What is it about this subject that people find so hard to grasp

I dont think anyone here is arguing that the Tiger is not derived from the alpine.. has anyone said that? This is a catch line you keep throwing yet nobody has said.

What has been said is that they start from ea comon point, but during the production process the Tigers were set aside and certain things were not added and then other parts were modfied.

as for what's hard to grasp.. the same comment could be leveled at you.. you dont seem to get the concept of switching the VIN's off one car to another does not change the cars history. There is also this notion of "saving" a car... apart from the numbers and some parts you are not saving anything.. you are perhaps sacraficing another car (alpine) which is your choice.. but how can you pretend that the alpines history is gone?

Lets put forward a hypothetical, lets say a Tiger has a big accident, is heavily damaged, front end and rear heavily damaged. You then rebody the car with a beautiful low milage rust free Alpine and switch Vins.. car is "saved" acording to you... 10 years later someone decides to rebuild the car, when they strip back the paint they were aware that the car had a big accident.. yet the shell shows no signs of damage, panel replacemtn etc... now they wonder.. this car was involved in a big hit.. where is the proof?

Same goes for stolen cars.. so what if you buy a stolen alpine convert it.. you switch VINs with the donor tiger.. suddenly you have hidden a stolen car.. .this is the reason cars have VIN's and why rebodying with cars that already have a VIn is looked down upon.... hertigae shells are brand new.. have no history and are always advertised as such.. its not the same as using a 45 year old alpine that has a history, previous owners etc...

and after all this I know that you wont acknowledge what i'm saying and you are very blinkered to it.. i have given several other examples of other cars with similar issues and you seem to have no issue there.. infact you said you had no issue with putting a genuine AC Cobra ID on a kirkham replica.... replicas are exactly that.. they can be the same or better.. but the point is.. they are a new creation.. they should not carry the identification of another car.

65beam · Post by **65beam** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:07 pm

race tiger,
michael's views on a restoration or rebody would probably change if he were to actually do a restoration of a car. by this i mean starting with a basket case and seeing just what is involved to do it right. to properly restore a rusted or bent body is not easy. if a shell sags in certain areas, nothing lines up later. that includes being able to set the proper door gaps, trunk lid, even getting the windshield set right. he also would learn fast about the attitude of body men. they can be considered the experts and they know the do and don't do of body work. i have gone thru this many times and i understand to some degree how a restoration body man thinks. they seem to use common sense. even though they are getting paid to restore, they do know when to throw in the towel. without a doubt there are shops around the world that could do a rebody and it would duplicate factory work. do most tac inspectors know how to tell you to repair the car? my opinion is NO! most that i know are not body men. and i have watched many tigers being tac'ed.

Red Race Tiger · Post by **Red Race Tiger** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:26 pm

Micheal,

Shelby has used Kirkham Cobra's for his continuation car's. He's also used Carbon fibre shells to make continuation car's. And i'm sure if he could get his hand's on recycled cardboard bodies he'd use those too....

Yes i DO see this 100% from a Restores point of view, without doubt.

Whilst most OWNERS havent got the faintest clue about vehicle structures and just how complicated one car be to unpick, fabricate, make and fefit....and it all fit's and works, my point is WHY BOTHER.

No way would i want a rotten ol welded up banger of a car when i could have a choice of a rustfree shell.

Regardless of wheather Jenson put it together or not.

meadowhog · Post by **meadowhog** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:37 pm

Hi Michael

Calming words, thanks. There is nothing I disagree with. Where I differ from RRT is Im not interested in swapping VINs. I have never mentioned swapping VINs. Recognising reshells as Tigers is not really what I want to discuss I believe that is slightly different thread.

Where I believe myself and RRT agree is we dont see any problem in using Alpine body parts to restore Tigers. I think the morals are to be kept separate from this discussion as it could get very messy and miss the point, ie if I found a rear ended Alpine write off-guess the rest, it goes on and on.

Both of us have extensive knowledge in whats required to keep a body straight so doors line up springs fit, car sits right etc etc. From what I have read and understand there are few of us on this this forum that have this skill and those that dont are firmly in the 'reshell is bad' camp with not a glimps of compromise. I can only assume this stance is due to ignorance (Sorry if that upsets anyone).

What I have specifically asked, is at what point does a restoration become an unacceptable conversion. Let me try and explain again. Lets take swapping VINs to the next level, lets swap only the skuttle with VIN attached then weld in all other parts. To me this is still a reshell and should be declared as such. The next level is to swap the skuttle and firewall as one piece, the next is skuttle firewall and trans tunnel, the next etc etc until you get to a point where there is enough of a cars 'monocoque' is a bad description so I will say, fabrication, that has been transplanted in one go that it is seen not as a reshell but a restoration.

One example of this would be take an Alpine shell, cut out the boot, rear bulkhead, floors, crucifix, firewall, skuttle, front chaisis rails, front wheel arches and rad panel. You would be left with all four wings rear wheel arches, all three sills and front/ rear valances and connecting bar. Do exactly the same to the Tiger(lets assume there are things that need repairing and eg exhaust fabrications, panhard rod mount etc to do). Then weld the two halves together. There would be enough of a Tiger build process to pass a TAC.

Before anyone jumps up and down please look at this from the point of view of someone that knows what they are doing and doesnt consider this as a 'cut and shut', I will not acknowledge that. If no specific fabrication detail is given I will assume they have little or no knowledge of how the car is put together.

If TAC is the Holy Grail then at what point will this type of work fail to meet the criterior of restoration and become a reshell or conversion or deception and fail the TAC.

I dont think I can be clearer than that. I believe there is a middle ground to be had which would stretch the TAC to show some flexibility and clear guide lines. To this end I would like to see a description of what as a minimum is required to pass a TAC and therefore allow poor Tigers to be saved, and seen as Tigers, without giving away the so called secrets of original Tigers. Or maybe as 65beam has hinted, even the TAC testers dont really know?