TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

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martin172
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Post by martin172 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:51 pm

Is a TAC inspection done using a points system.

Surely it would be very easy for a repaired or modified car to lose some of it's Jensen build signiture areas over the years.

Perhaps someone who knows the system could explain how it is done and any areas that people don't like can be discussed.

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:43 pm

Hi Martin,

The way I read it, the TAC inspection basically only looks for an authentic TIGER body irrespective of body, interior or engine mods. Check the US STOA site under 'authentication'.

Regards, Robin.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

martin172
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Post by martin172 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:36 pm

Hi Robin,

It occurred to me that not all cars will have 100% of the signitures looked for due to repair or mods and wondered how many are needed for a positive ID.
50%, 75% 100%?

I don't want to know what the points are as that info could be dangerous if it got into the wrong hands.

Also, as not everyone is a fan of the TAC, perhaps we should explore what isn't liked and why.

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:48 pm

Paul again I mostly agree with you. And you seem to have some similar experience and expertise with me in knowing what your talking about body wise.

Theres no confusion as to what TAC is and stands for. As for how its done the body is the important part. Its all about what Jenson did and what Pressed Steel didnt. They are looking for things that must be there and things that must be missing. There are things not in the public domain that I know about but wont discuss here. I assume its the indepth knowledge of tell tales they go by.

Again what I want to be clear on is, when does a restoration become a reshell. The reason for this is I would like to see a system that shows definitions like:

100% Original Tiger with no restoration. (unlikely and rare if not unknown) Because of this I would not specifically designate it.
Then taking Bobbys
Bobbybutton wrote:
Tiger (FC) - Factory car - Jenson built chassis, factory modified Tiger elements - VIN and JAL present
Tiger (FRB) - Factory re-bodied car - VIN and JAL present
Tiger (RBC) - re-bodied car, matching Tiger components - VIN and JAL present
Tiger (ARB) - re-bodied car, none matching Tiger components - VIN and JAL present
Tiger (RC) - replica Tiger - re-bodied, none matching Tiger components - no VIN and JAL present (may even have an Alpine VIN)
[/list]
I would offer

Tiger (FC) Factory car, includes restorations. Were talking shell only. Would pass TAC.
Tiger (BC) Factory body core, to include front rails, front wheel arches, bulkhead, trans tunnel, Centre of crucifix including Trans mounts, prop tunnel and rear seat panel, all to be joined by original construction method. Whats lefts is acceptable for replacement but doors, boot and bonnet etc must match original. Probably pass TAC
Tiger (RB) Re-Body, all Tiger parts present (probably restored) but individually fitted using non original construction methods. Doors, boot and bonnet etc must match original. Wont pass TAC.

Everything else. I dont think there was such a thing as factory re-body but if ther were I would place it in RB as the methods would unlikely be Pressed steels.

I would say there is a financial scale to be determined by the the market. At the moment the Black and White of TAC spreads doubt over everything.

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:01 pm

Red Race Tiger wrote:I'm not struggling with the TAC definition of an authentic Tiger, a re-shelled Tiger directly from one rusted shell into a suitably modified shell is still the same car, but with a replacement part ie the body.

Sadly TAC has no scope, it's either black or white, Tiger or Alger. No scope for anything else.

TAC would confirm a rusted/damaged Tiger bodyshell as in the "Worst Tiger" thread as a Tiger, what use is that?

But it wouldn't recognise that same car if it had had £10,000's invested into it with a re-body and was a better car for it. The opposite, it would have it's TAC voided.

For being inflexible that's my problem with TAC.


And as for Bob's posted image of Mr Harper sitting on a Tiger shell, of course this is a Tiger shell, it's awaiting seam welding in the competition's worshop at Humber road,proberbly either 667/668 and obviously they'd have access to them direct from pressed steel . But i still find it hard to believe that there ever was a service body available to the general public and , and if there was they soon ran out once Crysler took over.

You couldn't buy a Tiger here in the UK, how on earth would you get a bodyshell :?:

This re-shelling thing is nothing new, it's gone on for decades to the present day, i've posted elsewhere on this forum that as a younger fella i was a Ford Technician and personally re-shelled numerous Ford vehicle's, van's and truck cab changes. The bodies would arrive painted from the bodyshop and allocated 40,50,60 hour's for the re-shell. On completion the owner would collect the vehicle leaving the original damaged shell out in the compound for disposal. Perfectly legal....

Having had first hand experience of "Re-Bodying" - Re-Shelling" and how common place it was back then i really do think that there should be scope for a closer look at this subject.

TAC may well be fine for the U S, Australia and NZ etc but maybe as a British car in Britian it could possibly be done with a little more finese, a little less black and white or finger pointing.
Well that is how it is though Paul... You either have an Alpine or you have a Tiger and I am happy with it being inflexible. It's protecting the Tiger marque. No need to complicate the criteria by allowing an Alpine to be modified by who ever and resurrect a rusted or damaged beyond repair Tiger. If you don't like the TAC system, that's fine, there are always the critics but allowing re-bodied Tiger's using Alpine's is certainly not the way. As you know I love the Tiger marque as all of us do, and I have no issue with Alpine conversions but there is already a problem with counterfeit Tiger's, lets not make it worse. It would be a sad day if Tiger club's around the world changed their stance on this issue of re-bodying.

Regards, Robin.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:09 pm

martin172 wrote:Hi Robin,

It occurred to me that not all cars will have 100% of the signitures looked for due to repair or mods and wondered how many are needed for a positive ID.
50%, 75% 100%?

I don't want to know what the points are as that info could be dangerous if it got into the wrong hands.

Also, as not everyone is a fan of the TAC, perhaps we should explore what isn't liked and why.
I can't answer that 100% for you Martin as you stated because the TAC inspectors don't divulge that information for obvious reasons, however on the site it does state certain panels can be replaced without effecting the TAC process. If major core parts of the Tiger have been altered due to rust/damage, it may not be enough to please the inspectors criteria, so no TAC.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:23 pm

Hi Simon,

You keep coming back with the same question regarding the point at which a restoration becomes a re-body. With your in-depth knowledge of body work surely you can judge that? :? I don't think the club can tell you that either. As I said to Paul, over complicating the criteria is not the way.

Regards, Robin.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:23 pm

I'm not asking anyone to change anything, never have throughout any of my posting's, just my own personal opinion's and observation's.

However i do feel that this TAC system has no place in the U K because of it's lack of flexibility and will continue to divide the Tiger community here.

And again i dont think any of us here feel the need to fall in line. Sorry....

We are all enthusiast's :wink:

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:48 pm

I must be reading into the posts the wrong way then. :? You want a more relaxed attitude when it comes to re-bodying and allow Alpine's to have the Tiger mod's and be accepted as a Tiger. Since when have I told anyone that they have to fall into line as you put it? Didn't I say the TAC has its critics and I am also no advocate for the TAC system and my Tiger has not been TACed either. In saying that though I like it's inflexibility, I like the black and white... no grey.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:12 am

No what i think will eventually happen is a totally seperate means other than the TAC, a system that could allow flexibility.

The Tiger de-rived directly form the Alpine, like it or not but unfortunately that is a fact.

We cannot prevent re-bodied car's so instead of being Ostrich's open our eyes and make provision for them one way or another.

As iv'e already said the rest of the world may be quite happty to follow the U S lead TAC , as a British car i'd like to think we have our own mind's and can consider other option's open to us.

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:14 am

gtsmrt wrote:Hi Simon,

You keep coming back with the same question regarding the point at which a restoration becomes a re-body. With your in-depth knowledge of body work surely you can judge that? :? I don't think the club can tell you that either. As I said to Paul, over complicating the criteria is not the way.

Regards, Robin.
Which is precisely why I offered my own definition and simplified Bobbys list. I get the feeling from some responses there arent that many people that really know what goes into making a body :shock:

I have found that most people are prepared to criticise rather than come up with their own idea so I would rather someone else offer a sensible solution. As little was coming please feel free to feed back, Im expecting it. :wink:

I can also see the sense in publishing some guidlines to owner/restorers so they dont fall foul of making a genuine Tiger unrecognisable through innocent restoration. ie what you shouldnt do to preserve Tiger evidence of authenticity. Another limitation of the TAC sytem as the info is largely kept quiet.

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:46 am

We definitely can't stop the Algers, but we can protect our remaining authentic Tigers. Bringing in a heap of replicas won't help. You have your Alger though, I'm happy with my Tiger.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:32 am

meadowhog wrote:Which is precisely why I offered my own definition and simplified Bobbys list. I get the feeling from some responses there arent that many people that really know what goes into making a body :shock:

I have found that most people are prepared to criticise rather than come up with their own idea so I would rather someone else offer a sensible solution. As little was coming please feel free to feed back, Im expecting it. :wink:

I can also see the sense in publishing some guidlines to owner/restorers so they dont fall foul of making a genuine Tiger unrecognisable through innocent restoration. ie what you shouldnt do to preserve Tiger evidence of authenticity. Another limitation of the TAC sytem as the info is largely kept quiet.
Simon, I have my own ideas and opinions as you do. If you think I am criticising, so be it but like it or not it's over complicating what makes the car we love. What exactly do you hope to achieve by Tiger organisations becoming more transparent in regards to build techniques from Rootes/Jensen? You are intelligent enough to know what will happen in that case... a flood of un-original Tigers (replicas)? It may help some honest people, but invariably will be used by the dis-honest people more widely. Why also is it so important that people know how to make a body? We all know our limitations when it comes to repairs, that is why we take our cars to people who know what they are doing. I just can't accept your suggestion for more flexibility when you want to modify an Alpine, call it a Tiger and expect the wider Tiger community to accept it. Where's the logic in that?
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

michael-king
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Post by michael-king » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:21 am

martin172 wrote:Is a TAC inspection done using a points system.

Surely it would be very easy for a repaired or modified car to lose some of it's Jensen build signiture areas over the years.

Perhaps someone who knows the system could explain how it is done and any areas that people don't like can be discussed.
There are many of the jensen modified/installed parts that can be missing or altered on a Tiger and it will still pass TAC. You can have the whole front clip replaced on a car and it can pass, same for the back.. there will be other signs that the core of the body left is factory Tiger.

My car is TAC'd and it doesnt have the original boot floor installed as it has a fuel cell (though i still have the original with the spare tyre hold down, tool clips and punctured holes) my car has replacement front and read floor pans and modified exhaust pass throughs at the front to allow larger exhausts.. but there are other signs on the car in the engine compartment, rear deck, vertical face of the boot etc that are unalltered .. and im sure some other TAC points i dont know about.

If you go to my webshots page i have the full resto of the car posted from tear down to stripped body to rust replacement etc... was quite a bit of work performed but you see what is done/replaced and still enough there to pass the TAC.
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:35 pm

Hi Robin, I dont mind the discussion but I cant see Im getting my point across. There seems to be a hardcore TAC group that dont want to budge from their system even though there are limitations.

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