TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

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michael-king
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Post by michael-king » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:29 am

Paul,

I would be happy for you to PM/email me about 295B, feel free to send me the full story. The one thing you can probably answer me about that car in this thread.. was the revived car an alpine conversion with the 295 VIN and registration or was it a Tiger that then attempted to acquire the history of 295?
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
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gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:08 am

meadowhog wrote:I dont think the difference between a fraud and heavily restored car is clear cut. Ive made my point on that with examples. I would like someone from the 'its a fraud' camp to give an opinion on what that physical fraud is. I understand the deceipt and I like good conversion too.
Hi Simon,

What would make it fraud... swapping vin & id to a different body and performing the Tiger mods, then passing it off as a Tiger (basically re-birthing in my book). If you are replacing rusted panels, the core of the Tiger is still there and would be classified as restored, but can't see how it can be fraudulent. I have an un-TACed Tiger and I guess if people can't come to consensus then a TAC would certainly count for something in defining a Tiger (I always thought it was fairly clear cut). If the UK bring in a TAC, there needs to be one definition common to every country.

Regards, Robin.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:21 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:In my HUMBLE opinion let them in, provided that any given car has been declared as a re-shelled/re-built to a GIVEN recognised STANDARD and carries a Tiger vin where's the harm :?:
The issue with this, somewhere along the line the re-shell label will be dropped or forgotten and it starts all over again.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

vkxbob
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Post by vkxbob » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:28 pm

Hi.

I've followed this thread with much interest over the past few weeks. Quite new to Tigering and, on the subject of 295B, I too would be intrigued & interested to hear the full story. Perhaps a separate thread would be a good idea.

Cheers, Bob

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:17 pm

Hi Robin
gtsmrt wrote:
meadowhog wrote:I dont think the difference between a fraud and heavily restored car is clear cut. Ive made my point on that with examples. I would like someone from the 'its a fraud' camp to give an opinion on what that physical fraud is. I understand the deceipt and I like good conversion too.
Hi Simon,

What would make it fraud... swapping vin & id to a different body and performing the Tiger mods, then passing it off as a Tiger (basically re-birthing in my book). If you are replacing rusted panels, the core of the Tiger is still there and would be classified as restored, but can't see how it can be fraudulent. I have an un-TACed Tiger and I guess if people can't come to consensus then a TAC would certainly count for something in defining a Tiger (I always thought it was fairly clear cut). If the UK bring in a TAC, there needs to be one definition common to every country.

Regards, Robin.
The loop hole for me in your definition is just about all the defining core Tiger parts can and have been removed restored and replaced in a restoration. This also includes scuttle panel with id which would mean loosing the all important rivets. This type of car would be identical to a car which has had all the Alpine parts replaced with Alpine parts or Tiger parts transplanted. Is this a reshell or a Tiger restoration, considering the two cars are identical?

Regards

Simon

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:24 pm

Gee thanks, me being elevated as some sort of TAC ish inspector for the RE-Shelled Tiger community? No thanks....

For a start i can see all sorts of problems with that,

1st, Who would take that first brave step and declare their car as reshelled?

2nd, If someone had bought a Tiger thinking it a Tiger then found out it was a reshelled car then want's his /her money back because they feel it a "Lessor" car

3rd, Lawsuits and litigation all over the place.....?


No, if it would ever work it would have to be done as a prospective future buyer ie, the seller "If asked" would submit the car and based on the findings the car could be described as...

1 Without doubt a top line example, 100% Jenson built Tiger

2 Rebuilt, fully restored example with the main TUB of a factory Tiger, ie welded up and panel repaired complete with ALL the Tiger only items.

3 Re-shelled/ Re-bodied, declared as such without the ALGER stigma, a car that carries ALL the Jenson sheet metalwork mod's and done to a competent standard and is complete with ALL the Tiger items and allowed to carry over the TIGER Vin..... without finger pointing.

4 The ALGER, something that has no place here, a car so constructed that it bare's little or no resemblance to a TIGER, and does not carry a Tiger Vin.


No doubt these these view's will get shot down again which is fine, but i can see a time when something like this may well be adopted buy various parties in the future, i just takes a bit of good will to get it going.

I'll talk to STOC about starting an AHP 295B thread first before doing that. :idea:

martin172
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Post by martin172 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:04 pm

I asked a question earlier in the thread. Has the opinion on reshelling changed over the years?

From what I can gather being a noob, reshelling in previous decades didn't have the stigma attached to it that it does now.
If that is the case, these cars don't deserve the Alger title as it was simply seen as the most efficiant and effective way of solving a problem and had "approval".

I'm still trying to get my bearings here so is all, some or none of this true?

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:54 pm

Hi Martin

Years ago when the value of the car wasnt worth that much it was never an issue. Its the value of the car that has driven this, well thats my opinion. I would say though, that if the value was not there, restoration
or fraud would not be happening.

I dont know the exact car/incident/date when it became an issue. The TAC system was brought in the USA to identify Tigers that where not built by Jenson and they were coined Algers.

If you goto Norm Millers site there is more info on what they believe is not a genuine Tiger.

Cheers

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:29 am

Paul

We agree. I would also add the fraud. A car that is still a Tiger but particularly/specifically with history being passed off as something its not.

I think theres some compromise to be had on point 3 though.

AHP would be interesting but thats for you to decide :wink:

martin172
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Post by martin172 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:27 am

This is my point you see.

The issue of reshelling for me has many levels.
The result may be the same but as the intention was different surely that must be taken into consideration.

Out there there must be guys with cars that were reshelled many moons ago and it's never been an issue until relatively recently.
Putting myself in their shoes, it must be a little unsettling.

This doesn't really resolve the threads subject but it is something that I have been thinking about.
I'd be interested in hearing people's views on this.

Paul. I'd love to hear the story of AHP.

Mal
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Mal » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:35 am

I agree with these classifications for the Tiger as long as any rebodies are declaired.

With the value of the cars going up it is always going to demand cars of pedigree to be worth more as an investment. I doubt there are many that would take a matching numbers car and seriously modify it these days.

For others who buy a pre loved genuine car which has lacked love, (ask me how i know) it would be nice to think that restoring the body is considered more original than a rebody.

If a cars body is that far gone it needs a complete replacement, or it is the owners decision to replace the body rather than repair, then that should be declaired, recorded and the car should carry an additional tag.
I agree take away the Alger tag for rebodies which carry the majority of the donors cars parts.
I do understand and agree with why ORIGINALY the Alger tag has been given to cars, as some are nothing more than a built up V8 Alpine and to try and pass them off as genuine Tigers is wrong.
As for a warning of a rebody of a genuine Tiger, maybe it is time for change.

Cheers
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Mal
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Post by Mal » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:07 am

Red race Tiger wrote

I was talking to a "Specialist" the other week about this very subject and the UPROAR that this thread has caused, and he rightly commented that there is no PROFIT in reshelling a TIGER. "IF" done it would be done for the love of the car as by the time it was finished all the profit was gone....weather re-shelled or welded up, it's all the same, zero profit.
If you were to do it today and try and sell it tomorrow you are probably correct.

Martrin172 wrote

This is my point you see.

The issue of reshelling for me has many levels.
The result may be the same but as the intention was different surely that must be taken into consideration.

Out there there must be guys with cars that were reshelled many moons ago and it's never been an issue until relatively recently.
Putting myself in their shoes, it must be a little unsettling.

This doesn't really resolve the threads subject but it is something that I have been thinking about.
I'd be interested in hearing people's views on this.
If you reshelled a car 20 years ago and had 10,000 pounds in it and now you could sell it for 20,000 as a genuine car it could be tempting to be not quite honest.

I see a car in CW which the owner has declaired as a rebody, so I take my hat off to him.

It is the value of the cars going up that causes this. People want to know what they are buying.

Cheers
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gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:53 am

Lets face it Simon if the car was 75% gone, which would be similar to the rusted mess in a previous topic. In that case, you wouldn't be repairing a car like that any way... it would be a re-body unless you have a money tree out the back. What you are talking about is an extreme circumstance and I guess debatable in itself.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:14 am

meadowhog wrote: I think theres some compromise to be had on point 3 though.
For the life of me I really can't understand how an Alpine conversion can ever be a Tiger unless it was built at the Jensen factory. As previously stated, if the Tiger is in such a bad state let it go!! There will always be the Alger stigma and if the vin/id tags are swapped prepare for it to be on Norm's Alger list for the world to see. Stop kidding yourselves.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Ash
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Post by Ash » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:14 am

Lots of original tigers over here have had their chassis plates removed during restoration and then re riveted afterwards .
Last edited by Ash on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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