Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:50 pm

Normans Rootes 1 TAC site has been modified now but it used to carry numbers of car that had had their TAC's removed in bold RED, it no longer show's that anymore?

There was once a cracking Tiger on his site (White,Black hardtop with 16" Panasports that was OUTED) looked an amazingly restored example but was kicked out. :cry:

Here's my take on the TAC thing,

Very vague and unplausable i know but what if....


If you was to take a rusted Tiger, dismantle it and re-body into a rust free Alpine, ie 260, Toploader, front subframe and rear axle etc....carry out all the Tiger sheet metal mod's to exact Jenson spec wot have you got?

According to TAC you've got an ALGER to be outed?

What if though you took the remains of that Tiger shell, spent hours chasing the rot with a mig welder and fitted it with a Chevy 350, Tremec 6 speed, Ford 9" axle and a "Dales" new Tiger front suspension....oh and Panasports, Nitrous Brembo's on and on etc wot have you got?

According to the current TAC information you've got a TIGER? how does that work?

To me a Tiger has to be the spirit of the car ie as "Original" production car as poss regardless of the origin's of the donor shell.

A modified Tiger within reason ie The Le Man's coupe's or the Fraser car's were modified race cars of the period but STILL retained nearly all of their lessor road car cousins main items, they were not that far removed.

But by today's standards the sky's the limit with mod's and their still called "Tiger's"

Surely there has to be some common sense and scope to allow these reshelled cars in so as to give them a place instead of ignoring that this sort of dreadfull thing goes on.....

tigerguy2
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Post by tigerguy2 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:48 am

I have hesitated to participate in this thread, primarily because I have not had anything to contribute that is new or different than what has been said.

However, much earlier in this thread a thought was shared by another with which I strongly agree, and would like to bring forward again.

I think the concept of "replica" should be front and center. If one wants the experience of driving a "Tiger", a replica can certainly provide that. A replica is made by a third party, but however faithful to the original factory design and construction, is not a factory car, period. The VIN number has nothing to do with the faithful replication of the driving experience, or faithful replication of the external look of the car for that matter.

And as others have said, taking the step of putting an original factory ID (VIN) from another car on a replica to pass it off as a something from the factory is just wrong.

And as far as allowing these replicas "in" as a part of our community, I say indeed do so. We are all into sharing the same experience of what it means to own and drive a car that has the look and feel of a Tiger.

Respectfully submitted,

Gene

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:47 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:To me a Tiger has to be the spirit of the car ie as "Original" production car as poss regardless of the origin's of the donor shell.
I don't agree with your statement regarding taking it to a professional restorer. Either way it's a re-body and shouldn't be called a Tiger. If they are passing TAC's the inspectors aren't doing their job, but that is hard to believe. In regards to how people modify their Tiger's, that is entirely up to the owner... not my way of thinking but never the less we will always see highly modified cars that are very difficult to return to stock configuration. Even in a highly modified state, as long as the Tiger retains it's core items that distinguish it apart from an Alpine why not give it a TAC.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:57 am

tigerguy2 wrote:I think the concept of "replica" should be front and center. If one wants the experience of driving a "Tiger", a replica can certainly provide that. A replica is made by a third party, but however faithful to the original factory design and construction, is not a factory car, period. The VIN number has nothing to do with the faithful replication of the driving experience, or faithful replication of the external look of the car for that matter.
Hi Gene,

I agree 100%. I would say the majority of us don't mind a good replica as long as it is portrayed as such. It's the deception that is despised.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

martin172
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Post by martin172 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:04 pm

Would I be right in saying that the view on rebodying Tigers has changed over the years?

65beam
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tiger

Post by 65beam » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:30 pm

nobody has clarified why it's such a big deal to rebody a tiger. there are alpine based cars such as the harrington lemans which was also converted by an outside vendor and was the only harrington built alpine conversion that was sold by sunbeam dealers. i never hear anyone complain if a harrington gets rebodied. and there were only 250 of them built. that makes the 100+ known cars that are left to be rare. except for the tiger specific body parts everything else on the tiger body is alpine. anyone have a well defined answer why a tiger rebody creates such tension and debate?

tigerguy2
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Post by tigerguy2 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:47 pm

The terms "fraud" and "counterfeit" come to mind. The marketplace says that a Tiger is worth more than an Alpine. Taking an Alpine and today converting it to a Tiger, representing it as an originally built Tiger and selling it at a Tiger price is, to me, a fraud. No different than washing a $5.00 bill and using the paper to print a $10.00 bill.

As another poster pointed out, transferring a VIN from one car body to another apparently has been declared illegal in at least one state in the US. I take it that you feel there is nothing wrong with doing that. Perhaps now the question of "why it's such a big deal" should be elevated to the courts.

Gene

65beam
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tiger

Post by 65beam » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:57 pm

you still did not answer my question.

tigerguy2
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Post by tigerguy2 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:12 pm

To partially quote a line from an old Paul Newman movie, "what we have here is a failure to communicate..." I have nothing more to add.

Gene

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:50 pm

What gets me is that we all believe there is an element that want to pass off a converted Alpine as a Tiger and defraud. Especially if the car has history. However those that insist that reshelling is fraud have not qualified at what point a car is a reshell as apposed to a heavily restored car.

To me, saying reshells are fraud and changing wings is OK is a woolly statement that doesnt really mean anything. As I said in my first post without agreement of what is meant by Original, Alger, Replica, Reshell, conversion, etc and the difference between them, this will rumble on until the courts decide. Back to old No.1.

One persons rebuild is anothers reshell is anothers fraud. The only people I can see that are really having an opinion are those that are wanting to save the cars. Well maybe there was one exception :roll: As for TAC inspectors not doing their job, well, without knowing what gave the game away its hard to say that, that is, unless the TAC is now under scrutiny?

Come on, qualify at what point does a restoration become deception. Removal of the vin is way not enough.

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Post by gtsmrt » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:28 am

Hi meadowhog,

I think it's clear cut what a rebody is as apposed to a restored Tiger. We are not saying that every re-bodied Tiger is done to deceive, what we do take issue with are the people who do it to defraud the unwary buyer. Re-body all you like, the honest person will admit what has been done though. I for one, like a good conversion 4,6 or 8.

Regards, Robin.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:59 pm

Have i read that right :?: A Tiger reshelled with the same shell that it de-rived from is a "REPLICA" replica of wot exactly :?: a TIger ???

The TIGER is a direct derivative of the ALPINE Hello, ..... No Alpine NO NO NO NO NO NO NO TIGER.........

It's like bashing your head against a brick wall here......


Without the Alpine we wouldn't be having this topic, Alpine's and Tiger's are British car Built in British factories BY Brit's.....so we dont have to dance to other tune's from across the way.

1 Replica? where did that come from?
2 Alger show someone up& make them look stupid.
3Rebody- Re-shelled dont talk to them.....coz their only in it for the money.

Where have we lost sight of that maybe we are saving "TIGER" here?

Is it so impausable that a rebuilt Tiger using a rustfree Alpine which is the SAME shell that it de-rived from in the first place is so wrong??

It's the same car....

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:08 pm

Hi Robin

I agree with all but one point. I dont think the difference between a fraud and heavily restored car is clear cut. Ive made my point on that with examples. I would like someone from the 'its a fraud' camp to give an opinion on what that physical fraud is. I understand the deceipt and I like good conversion too.

If someone sells their precious 'Tiger' that has had 75% of the panels replaced, either Alpine or patch panels, and that is disclosed to the buyer, who is very pleased with thier purchase. Then they sell it and the next owner is told 'its an Alger' so he wants his money back. Is it the 'Fraud' camp that has created the situation?

Have the owners of UN-TAC'd cars given a view, should we use the TAC definition, or, is it a case of the 'onus is on the seller' to tell the buyer what has been replaced. That unfortunately doesnt give us a largely objective view of what constitutes a Tiger instaed of something else.

Red Race-honest opinion with the nerve to say what a lot are probably scared of saying, maybe they have something to hide? hat off to you. Maybe you are the perfect person for setting up a UK TAC :)

And it goes on :(

Regards
Simon

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Post by michael-king » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:42 pm

Red Race Tiger wrote:Have i read that right :?: A Tiger reshelled with the same shell that it de-rived from is a "REPLICA" replica of wot exactly :?: a TIger ???

The TIGER is a direct derivative of the ALPINE Hello, ..... No Alpine NO NO NO NO NO NO NO TIGER.........

It's like bashing your head against a brick wall here......
It is like banging your head against a brick wall for both sides.

The Tiger is derived from an alpine, of course. No alpine = no tiger of course. As pointed out earlier, no 3 series no M3, no ac ace, no cobra.. but they are an evolution, they changed. Yes you can perform the same procedure on a car, but you seem to think that erases the history of the car you are converting, and you have yet to ever answer that.. especially in reference to the point i made about the LM Tigers.
Red Race Tiger wrote:Without the Alpine we wouldn't be having this topic, Alpine's and Tiger's are British car Built in British factories BY Brit's.....so we dont have to dance to other tune's from across the way.

1 Replica? where did that come from?
2 Alger show someone up& make them look stupid.
3Rebody- Re-shelled dont talk to them.....coz their only in it for the money.

Where have we lost sight of that maybe we are saving "TIGER" here?
1. Replica = you can also use recreation, tribute, tool room copy, it defines a car that has been built to emulate (in fine detail) the car that inspired it. There is no shame/negativity, it just implies that the car was not built on the original production line. As a side note, fraser nash built cars they called "replicas" of their own cars.. the FN LM replicas.. they replicated the spec of their racers.

2. Alger = a term to describe an alpine that has had Tiger parts transplanted into it. This term shouldn;t have a negative association, but because of unethical people who have done this procedure to make personal gain it does. A nice lager is a great car, but it is an alpine that has had a V8 conversion using donor Tiger parts.

3. Rebody/Resheel = well this is as above, it's an alger. There is NOTHING WRONG with it IF IT IS TRANSPARENT AND OPEN. There are people who perform the conversion and keep the alpine VIN and SAL tage on the cars, they are not trying to hide what's done. They do it because they want a V8 sunbeam and the Tiger they had/have is to far gone for their skill or budget to restore. Again the negativity arrises when people do this and then switch VIN's on the cars and hide what has been done.
Red Race Tiger wrote:Is it so impausable that a rebuilt Tiger using a rustfree Alpine which is the SAME shell that it de-rived from in the first place is so wrong??

It's the same car....
As above again.. not many people have issues with rebodying the cars, people have issues with the choive by some to switch VIN's and then imply that it was a car built by the factory. As for the "saving a Tiger" you are not saving it.. you are KILLING an alpine.

If someone had a rusty alpine they wanted to save and got a nice rust free tiger removed the trans tunnel, put all the alpine bits in, switched the boot floor, welded in the exhaust pass throughs put in a 1725 and then put the VIN and SAL plates on it, would that be an alpine or tiger in your view?

Paul, making a car yourself no matter how exact makes it a replica/recreation, not a factory car. You never answered me in regards to the Lister Tigers, you never answered if someone had saved the VIN and engine from your fathers car and put it in an alpine would that have made it your fathers race tiger? A car has a history, if the car is beyond saving, let it die.. put the numbers to rest. If its parts can live on in another car, all well and good.. doesnt make the recipiant the donor.
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:18 am

Micheal,

I really wished you could have kept my father's car seperate in your response as the two topic's are not the same, as it never did see the light of day.....and in the end nobody lost money in that scam.

What happened to 295 was for pure profit and greed and if it hadn't been for me the nasty individual who tried that scam may well have got away with it.

But the two issues are wholey seperate and i'd prefere that they stay that way unless someone want's me to start a 295B thread :?: and i could write a book on that subject that would make your toes curl....

Throughout my post's i have done so as a Tiger fan, an enthusiast. And as such i have not once talked about "Profit" or "Deception"

I have only ever talked about "reshelling" an iconic 60's BRITISH sports car to prevent 1, 2 or 3 whatever car's from rotting away into ablivion for the lack of a decent rust free shell and that's all.
I was talking to a "Specialist" the other week about this very subject and the UPROAR that this thread has caused, and he rightly commented that there is no PROFIT in reshelling a TIGER. "IF" done it would be done for the love of the car as by the time it was finished all the profit was gone....weather re-shelled or welded up, it's all the same, zero profit.

For all those who wish to stick their head's in the sand with your ear's covered they will never be reached, but those who have worked with these car's BOTH Alpine and Tiger will realise exactly how close in sheet metal they ARE. No ALPINE no TIGER.

As the Tiger de-rived 100% from the ALPINE re-shelling a Tiger is STILL a Tiger, sinse when was there ever an Alpine fitted with a 260/289V8 except in Europe :?:

Carrying over an Alpine Vin is just pure nonesense, it's only the TIGER police that would insist on that.

In my HUMBLE opinion let them in, provided that any given car has been declared as a re-shelled/re-built to a GIVEN recognised STANDARD and carries a Tiger vin where's the harm :?:

There's always going to be those who will throw their toy's out of the pram screaming but in the long run i cant see how it will harm the top money car's, it could only serve to make their value's higher.
We all know they are out there, some better than other's of course but that's no different to the real thing.

These cars are now getting on for 50 years old, who can say exactly how many are ORIGINAL :?:

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