Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

Post general questions relating to Tigers
Tim
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Post by Tim » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:04 pm

gvickery wrote:HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL USERS OF THIS FORUM

Not enough contributors / contributions folk. The thread has been viewed 3500+ times and drawn contributions from just 13 of us, only half coming from STOC members. The thread may be 'heated' but it won't take us too far unless a bunch of our 'viewers' have a crack at penning a comment. It only needs to convey what you think; it doesn't have to be a debate killing argument.

Go on give it a go, else we will have to pull its 'sticky' status.

Graham
STOC Editor
Ok, I‘ve stayed out of this so far but my view on the subject is quite simple;

If a car/shell went down the production line at Jensen then it’s a Tiger. If it didn’t then it’s not.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with bolting Tiger bits to an Alpine shell, as long as it is made clear to everyone that this work has been carried out. The most logical and obvious way of doing this is to keep the Alpine body’s identity/tags.

I agree with the view that the most likely reason someone would fix Tiger tags to an Alpine body is to fool prospective buyers into thinking that they are buying a genuine Tiger, therefore this practice should be discouraged.

lovejoy
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Post by lovejoy » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:24 am

[quote="Tim"]Ok, I‘ve stayed out of this so far but my view on the subject is quite simple;

If a car/shell went down the production line at Jensen then it’s a Tiger. If it didn’t then it’s not.[/quote]

Really ????? then the 73 Tigers that didn't go down Jensen's production line, but were built in South Africa aren't really Tigers at all ?? :roll:

what would you call them then !
ex 928 PP & OPD 134 D MK1's

William Syson

Post by William Syson » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:26 am

Image

So suck on this some of you idiots... AHP 295B is nothing but a pile of junk - a fake. But, according to comments by Paul Sears in the STOC Forum, he claims a logbook and ID is the same thing? Oh yes? I think not ? A log book and a ID does not make a tiger just a pile of crap!! .
According to the DVLA Registering a radically altered vehicle requires the following:
The vehicle must score eight or more points to retain the original registration mark. If less than eight points are scored or a second-hand or modified chassis or altered monocoque bodyshell is used an Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA), enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA), single vehicle approval (SVA) or motorcycle single vehicle approval (MSVA) certificate will be required to register the vehicle. A 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated and so say the dvla, otherwise swapping body and vin tags is fraud. spoke to the main man in swansea! The following values will be allocated to the major components used:
•chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
•suspension = 2 points
•axles = 2 points
•transmission = 2 points
•steering assembly = 2 points
•engine = 1 point

Where there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie 'cut and shut') a 'Q' mark will be allocated.
and so say all of us!!!!!!!!!
W.S.

Mal
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Post by Mal » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:24 am

quote "Ok, I‘ve stayed out of this so far but my view on the subject is quite simple;

If a car/shell went down the production line at Jensen then it’s a Tiger. If it didn’t then it’s not. "

Really ????? then the 73 Tigers that didn't go down Jensen's production line, but were built in South Africa aren't really Tigers at all ??

what would you call them then !
I think Tim has just fogotten about the SA Tigers. Obviously the cars were built under Rootes groups marque as a Tiger.


It seems most people seem to think replacing a rusted or accident damaged body with a shell from a Alpine is better than a genuine Tiger being lost.
If people did it properly and the car carried the Q tag (or what ever was required in the country where the work was being done )then there is no problem with deceict.
Image

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:37 am

The Tiger's that went to South Africa were CKD (Complete Knock Downs). They definitely have been down the assembly line at Jensen otherwise they would be South African Alpines. They are Tiger's assembled in South Africa.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:12 am

William Syson wrote:Image

So suck on this some of you idiots... AHP 295B is nothing but a pile of junk - a fake. But, according to comments by Paul Sears in the STOC Forum, he claims a logbook and ID is the same thing? Oh yes? I think not ? A log book and a ID does not make a tiger just a pile of crap!! .
According to the DVLA Registering a radically altered vehicle requires the following:
The vehicle must score eight or more points to retain the original registration mark. If less than eight points are scored or a second-hand or modified chassis or altered monocoque bodyshell is used an Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA), enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA), single vehicle approval (SVA) or motorcycle single vehicle approval (MSVA) certificate will be required to register the vehicle. A 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated and so say the dvla, otherwise swapping body and vin tags is fraud. spoke to the main man in swansea! The following values will be allocated to the major components used:
•chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
•suspension = 2 points
•axles = 2 points
•transmission = 2 points
•steering assembly = 2 points
•engine = 1 point

Where there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie 'cut and shut') a 'Q' mark will be allocated.
and so say all of us!!!!!!!!!
W.S.
That is all good and proper, but how does the tester know what they are looking at and more importantly what to look for. It would be nice to think that the tester would pick up a fake, but in reality a good copy would slip through.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

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gvickery
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Post by gvickery » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:32 am

The insulting rant from WS typifies what this thread doesn't need. Its anger and misunderstanding adds nothing. Let me explain.

STOC knows all about the vehicle pictured. That registration number is not attached to that vehicle anymore. It is not a Sunbeam Tiger and at the last count is not owned by Paul Sears, nor is anyone still claiming the machine to be AHP 295B. Neither would STOC standby were this past episode repeated with any other destroyed 'works' Tiger.

DVLA regulations about re-bodying have previously been pointed out here but they have clearly been ignored over the years, as STOC can testify, and continue to be.

Read the thread, get your facts right and make your point without insulting anybody. Or leave the thread...full stop.

Graham
STOC Editor

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:43 pm

C'mon Mr Syson, we all know who you are David....

What exactly IS your point here? Coz i cant see it?

When have i EVER claimed to have owned 295B? why are you putting me with the fake when it has taken me the last 20+ years to make people listen that it wasn't the real 295.

I made a point of discussion that a "CAR" was it's log book ID because that's exactly what did happen with 295B, my father very almost lost his life in that car and after nine years in various hospitals he emerged brain impared. He was coned out of the log book by a vile opportunist and so began the AIR CAR.

AND the point i was trying to make was that without that Historic Logbook it couldn't have happened and that YES a car cannot exist without an ID weather it's a WORKS rally car or not.

SO again my point is and i really hope it's getting through here is that armed with a rotted/rusted Tiger and it's ID and a rustfree Alpine shell you have if carried out correctly a Tiger that could go on and last for many years to come.

As a point of note, when finally the bankroller accepted that the game was up he sold it to his mate who then "RUNG IT" on to FHJ 633D and advertised it for £35,000 then re "Rung It" again onto another reg, put some Tiger stainless side trims on it and was then asking £45,000 complete with FIA HTP papers.....what a complete joke.

Just look on Normans Alger Alley, it's on there not once but three times.

It's got nine lives that car.

I would have thought that owning a car that doesn't have it's original shell, Jal number, engine, gearbox or back axle and can only be recognised by it's original log book and damaged vin plate you'd be the last person to pipe up.

But oh yes i forgot it has that all important TAC?


If you live in a glass house mate.....dont throw stones.


Like Graham has said, be constructive and be polite, or craul back into the hole you dragged yourself out of.

Keep a civil tongue.

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:09 am

Sorry, my mistake.

FHJ 433D

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gvickery
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Post by gvickery » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:16 am

It would seem 'William Syson' is a fake ID cloaking somebody not prepared to work with expected forum conduct. Accordingly that ID has been deleted.

His 'contribution' and related exchanges will be deleted later.

Graham
STOC Editor

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:37 am

Graham leave his rantings on here, they only show him up in his true light.

If you take them down the thread will loose it's direction.

Wilbur Bud
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Post by Wilbur Bud » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:12 pm

gvickery wrote:It would seem 'William Syson' is a fake ID cloaking somebody
Does it mean Willian Syson is not the person's actual name? (I would judge many user names are like that, although there is certainly a trend in discussion forums for everyone to use their real name) I wouldn't delete him or her in that case.

Or, does it mean its a second username for someone already a member of the forum, a so-called "sock puppet" ? In that case, almost all forums delete and ban the offending party, including all their other aliases/accounts.

In any case, I too would support leaving the user's comments as the internet is filled with remarks that wouldn't be said the same way face to face, or at all in some cases, and while unduly harsh at times, could still provoke the discussion in some cases.

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:31 am

I too would leave it on the forum. He could have been drinking! He does have an input but I agree with Robin. If we cant decide what is an acceptable rebuild or rebody, a car that has knowingly been destroyed come back to life (a fake) and passed a TAC, then theres no chance the DVLA would be able to impose their point system.

Lets move on.

michael-king
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Post by michael-king » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:27 pm

meadowhog wrote: If we cant decide what is an acceptable rebuild or rebody, a car that has knowingly been destroyed come back to life (a fake) and passed a TAC, then theres no chance the DVLA would be able to impose their point system.
Lets move on.
Has anyone ever actually outed a alger thats passed TAC? We have had someone suggest its happened, but nobody ever points to a car.. or reason they know/belive its a rebody.
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
Image

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:44 pm

Red Race Tiger wrote: But oh yes i forgot it has that all important TAC?
I would have thought it more than possible.

If you strip off everything you would/could from a car being restored all in one go you would be left with front inner wheel arch still attached to front chasis. Maybe even these would be parted. Everything else seems to have been cut out and replaced after repair or just replaced with after market repair patches. Just look at Dales stuff and pictures of rebuilds on this forum and photo sites.

Im not implying these cars are not Tigers but if not documented it would have to raise some doubts, unless done with the same techniques as were originaly employed by both Pressed steel and Jenson.

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