Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

Post general questions relating to Tigers
meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:50 am

Sounds good,

We dont want to go into too much detail, but as part of the process some panels are missed out of the PS assembly, some are also spot welded into place as an addition. Then the rest are welded in later. Spot welding when the car was mostly assembled probably became difficult or expensive.

Also there is the question of what cars had square or rounded parts. There doesnt appear to be clear cut off points for this.

How far do we go in decribing the differences btween the two cars in this thread. It may become invaluable to those that want to decieve. Someone has suggested what typre of welding was used at Jenson which I dont agree with but dont really want to discuss here

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:09 am

The welding process?

Looking at the top hats, bulkhead and tunnel this was done with an knackered mig welder, with the wire speed set to warp factor 5 and the gas run out :lol:

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:36 am

Its an Alger then, I dont think they had Migs back then. So we now have 3 opinions. Only joking, mine look like divebombing seagulls :wink:

Maybe we should first define what we are trying to achieve. I think, as has been suggested the TAC could be better. Should the question be how can it be improved? It a good starting point. I know its all too easy to jump to answers

I still think going through the process of manf like Graham is suggesting is the right way to go, but we could do with a goal and process of how we can achieve it.

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:19 pm

Mine too has the pigeon sh-t welds for the top hats and I think the poor bloke may have also had a drinking problem, but it seem to do the job (maybe he was an electrician). :) In regards to the square or round corner models, I don't think it really makes that much difference as they were only really aesthetic (the core of the Tiger is already there).

Regards, Robin.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

michael-king
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Post by michael-king » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:31 pm

meadowhog wrote:Also there is the question of what cars had square or rounded parts. There doesnt appear to be clear cut off points for this.
I'm not 100% sure of the actual change in VIN where the bodies changed.. but in regards to the bonnets/doors/boots and vents.. there are several stages.

Early MKI's, cars have lead filled seams, round corner bonnet/doors/boot/metal soft top covers and no vents in scuttle.

Cross over body MKI's appear (same time as alpine SIVa) no filled seams, square corner bonnet/doors, round corner boot with metal soft top covers and no vents in scuttle, also interior gets GT doors.

Cross over body MKIA's appear (same time as alpine SV) no filled seams, square corner bonnet/doors, round corner boot with vynil soft top covers, scuttle vents. Switch to B382 VINS.

Later MKIA, all sqauer corner opening panels.

MKII as per MKIA with no battery box hole in the rear deck. Switch to B3821 VINS

There are various other sheetmetal changes along the way, changes to the tunnel with the high beam mounts, battery retain tabs in the boot, and as graham has showed recently, the manner the front panel has the radiator mounting holes.
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:19 pm

Maybe the fella who did the welding also tuned piano's and had a Labrador :idea: :lol:

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:44 pm

I assume putting this info of body type is not worrying anyone but I will for now try not to put too much info here. But then maybe we should to help those buying a car. It would be very difficult to do reshell without leaving signs. But then again a reshell maybe acceptable. Does the club want to be part of a TAC type system and take on any responsibility for this. If not maybe the club would willing to publish what we believe are signs of orininality and leave any potentila owners to do the checks themselves.

The type of door bonnet or boot or vents etc. would be a big indicator of a reshell. The body would have to have some mod to suit for instance a different door. The doors also have different handle positions but someone said theyre Tiger (which is original) had, I cant quite remember, square doors and round bonnet, hence my question.

I do agree though that bolt on parts should be ruled out. But for instance the type of wooden dashboard could be a indicator of correct time lines.

But, what do we determine is our goal. As a starter, a car that can be shown photographically as being restored, or one where all the origianl parts come with a resto, or jsut owning the paper work which ties in with plates, or TAC is a 90% guarantee of originality.

There was an indepth study of the scuttle plates and the type of rivets used but these could be removed and replaced. If it could be shown they were original its virtually 100% Tiger but does not prove its not. So should we say there is no way of guaranteeing a Tiger is not a Tiger but we can prove that it is the real deal? I would however reframe from guaranteeing 100% as this could be legal minefield.

65beam
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tiger

Post by 65beam » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:26 pm

i make that statement because i have seen many bare metal cars over my 40 something years as an owner. there is also an old saying that seeing is believing and having seen the two cars side by side i have seen the differences and i have formed an opinion based on that. did pressed steel leave off things like the battery box,the alpine trans tunnel and the inner fender support brackets? did jenson remove these parts from the completed alpine shell? are there records telling what was done or is it speculation? some things being said make me believe some owners have no knowledge of the actual construction of the cars. that is my reason for saying they should see a shell in a bare metal state. then they would have a much better knowledge of the bodies. they would see the remains of the alpine master cylinder brackets on a tiger shell along with the mods to other alpine panels. is it right to rebody? that right belongs to the owner and nobody else. i restore my cars for myself and not for others. i would rebody an alpine or tiger. i would not do it to deceive nor for the profit. if i remember right one member of this club was at the TE/AE united in maine in 2010. he had to see my fastback alpine and that is a good example of how i build my cars to what i want without asking others if i can do it. the rebody debate will never end. it seems it has become more heated in the last few years here in the states.

gtsmrt
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Re: tiger

Post by gtsmrt » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:16 pm

65beam wrote:i make that statement because i have seen many bare metal cars over my 40 something years as an owner. there is also an old saying that seeing is believing and having seen the two cars side by side i have seen the differences and i have formed an opinion based on that. did pressed steel leave off things like the battery box,the alpine trans tunnel and the inner fender support brackets? did jenson remove these parts from the completed alpine shell? are there records telling what was done or is it speculation? some things being said make me believe some owners have no knowledge of the actual construction of the cars. that is my reason for saying they should see a shell in a bare metal state. then they would have a much better knowledge of the bodies. they would see the remains of the alpine master cylinder brackets on a tiger shell along with the mods to other alpine panels. is it right to rebody? that right belongs to the owner and nobody else. i restore my cars for myself and not for others. i would rebody an alpine or tiger. i would not do it to deceive nor for the profit. if i remember right one member of this club was at the TE/AE united in maine in 2010. he had to see my fastback alpine and that is a good example of how i build my cars to what i want without asking others if i can do it. the rebody debate will never end. it seems it has become more heated in the last few years here in the states.
Unfortunately probably none of us could ever answer your questions unless someone worked at Pressed Steel. The way the vehicles were engineered is not for debate here and I'm not sure how having an in-depth knowledge in the two models sways the outcome of this debate. Having knowledge in the two is handy if identifying them or restoring them. So answer this, after you have re-shelled your Alpine or Tiger what tags do you put on the re-shell having your body knowledge?
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Bobbybutton
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My two penneth

Post by Bobbybutton » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:25 pm

If it has the original chassis, top hats, gearbox tunnel, tub and tags with everything or anything else that may have been restored its a Tiger

If it's a complete re-shell with a swap of the tags and added Tiger bits its an Alpine conversion

Do what you like to the engine

Ideally it should be a Tiger axle

But what the hell - IMO if someone wants to spend £20k plus taking whats left of a Tiger and restoring an Alpine into one - this should be encouraged

Its the chaps who are deliberately profiteering from the trade in Tiger ID's who need to be watched - £5k for logbook (VIN plate and paperwork)

There is my contribution!

meadowhog
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Post by meadowhog » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:20 am

It seems to me that with the level of replies and excuse me if I sound blunt most people arnt bothered if a Tiger is authentic as long as most of the bits are there even if they have been removed, repaired and replaced into either a Alpine or back into the Tiger. Once any part has been removed it will invariably be refitted using a mig as shown in many rebuilds thus loosing the key ability of authentication.

I see where 65beam is coming from but if for instance a boot floor has been removed for repair and replaced using mig because an original method of construction cannot be used, any proof of authenticity is lost.

If people are prepared to accept this there will never be a way of knowing if a car has been reshelled.

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:00 am

Intresting comment's there Mr Button....

Putting a Tiger into an Alpine? The Tiger came from the Alpine.

It's all in the name, in France it's called an Alpine 260, so over ther we'd be reshelling an Alpine into an Alpine albeit a 260

If Rootes had named these car's as both Alpine and Alpine 260 instead of the "Tiger" it would have been known as a bigger engined variant Alpine (As in France) same as the Ford Capri 1.6 or bigger 2.8/3.0lt, same car different engines.

But because it's "THE TIGER".....we have this devide and snobbery.

Let's face it as Gary said nothing that Jenson did cannot be re-produced? it was all pretty shocking by today's standard's or in the day to be fair. So because we cant re-produce that level of DIY it's a lessor car? How does that work?

The Alpine and the Tiger are the same car....with minor semi skilled level's of modification one becomes the other. Just as Jenson did it.

We're not talking about reshelling into a Hillman Husky using the same basic floorpan and converting that, we're talking about using the SAME shell that the car derived from in the first place.

And people profiteering from ID's? that's not a Tiger only desease, that happens with Alpines too....

michael-king
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Post by michael-king » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:01 am

meadowhog wrote:It seems to me that with the level of replies and excuse me if I sound blunt most people arnt bothered if a Tiger is authentic as long as most of the bits are there even if they have been removed, repaired and replaced into either a Alpine or back into the Tiger. Once any part has been removed it will invariably be refitted using a mig as shown in many rebuilds thus loosing the key ability of authentication.

I see where 65beam is coming from but if for instance a boot floor has been removed for repair and replaced using mig because an original method of construction cannot be used, any proof of authenticity is lost.

If people are prepared to accept this there will never be a way of knowing if a car has been reshelled.
I'm not so sure thats the case.. i think most people dont mind if a car is rebodied.. i think people have the issue with the change of VIN from one car to another.. and this is probably as in most cases it's done in secret.

As for the change in welding techniques there are other guides apart from the weldindg.. i have seen a TAC car that basically had nothing left.. now, how you would rebuild that car would be another question.. but this car had no interior sheetmetal at all..as in no floots, tunnel, rear deck etc.. no boot floor.. there are other flags... a car can be heavily modified and restored and still pass TAC.

There are probably algers out there with more original Tiger parts in them than some authenticated cars... but its not about the details and percentage of parts. There are several key pointers that are not obvious and are not discussed.. otherwsie it would allow people to build more exacting rebodies... which is a reason some people dislike TAC.. but if those points became comon knowledge the number of people that could create a convincing imposter would become problematic.
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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michael-king
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Post by michael-king » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:09 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:Intresting comment's there Mr Button....

Putting a Tiger into an Alpine? The Tiger came from the Alpine.

It's all in the name, in France it's called an Alpine 260, so over ther we'd be reshelling an Alpine into an Alpine albeit a 260

If Rootes had named these car's as both Alpine and Alpine 260 instead of the "Tiger" it would have been known as a bigger engined variant Alpine (As in France) same as the Ford Capri 1.6 or bigger 2.8/3.0lt, same car different engines.

But because it's "THE TIGER".....we have this devide and snobbery.

Let's face it as Gary said nothing that Jenson did cannot be re-produced? it was all pretty shocking by today's standard's or in the day to be fair. So because we cant re-produce that level of DIY it's a lessor car? How does that work?

The Alpine and the Tiger are the same car....with minor semi skilled level's of modification one becomes the other. Just as Jenson did it.

We're not talking about reshelling into a Hillman Husky using the same basic floorpan and converting that, we're talking about using the SAME shell that the car derived from in the first place.

And people profiteering from ID's? that's not a Tiger only desease, that happens with Alpines too....
Paul..

I really have to disagree with you on "its the name" that causes the issue... as i mentioned earlier there are cars that require even less modification between 2 models.. mustang GT350/GT500 is an obvious one.. shells are almost identical bar the bolt on stuff.. even cars like cortinas and lotus cortinas.. escorts etc... but they still require people to state reshells and be open about it.

I have as much issue with someone switching the numbers between 2 tigers as i do between an alpine and tiger.. you are still swicthing a cars identity and claiming its a car that obviously was another for the first 50 years of its life.... :cry:.. i really cant see a reason for changing a VIN you are moving one cars history/identity to another and pretending the other no longer exists. As for your argument about registering an alpine VIn car with a V8.. why is that so hard.. people get them registerd in the UK with ford V6, Ford Ztec etc...
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:18 am

Micheal, you talk about all this with such passion, top man.

None of this is really that important in the grand scheme of things is it? and we're never going to agree, which is fine.

But switching Vin's and leaving the Alpine's history behind in my mind has to be the correct way, as it's no longer an ALPINE it's a Tiger with the same very basic mod's that Jenson performed.


If the Reshell has been carried out to such a level that it includes 100% of all the body mod's just as Jenson did then it's a reshelled Tiger and should be "Honestly" declared so BUT should be allowed to carry the Tiger Vin as that is NOW what the car represents, a reshelled Alpine into a Tiger is now obviously not an Alpine.

I do realise that one man's conversion is another man's bodge up but i really do think that similar to TAC there should be scope for very authentic rebodied Tiger's to have their own place without the stigma associated otherwise there will always be this hush hush see no, hear no, speak no attitude.

If say there was a recognised minimum check list that any given reshell MUST have to be viewed as authentic then i could only see that as a positive move, it's never going to threaten the top end genuine cars, proberbly the opposite and will make them all the more valuable.

It is a very divided subject which i have enjoyed taking part in but it really does seem double standards to me in so much as if you can have a highly modified "Tiger" with a 347, big brakes, 5 speed, rear disc's, headers, stainless big wheels etc etc it's still a Tiger.

Reshell and keep it stock...... it's an Alpine :?:

It's a subject that's got us all talking :idea: , have you seen how many visit's this "Sticky" has had :?: but until some of us are faced with either a wrecked or rusted Tiger it's hard to find a common ground.


If a 302's been thrown at an Alpine with a autobox and some old axle from the back yard then clearly we need to steer clear of that one....that's some sort of a kit car thingy. :wink:

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