TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

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michael-king
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Post by michael-king » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:17 pm

Mal,

interesting point you raise with regards to the GTHO falcons, and same for GTS monaros and E46 chargders.. i didnt use these examples ealier as they are specific to our part of the world (hence using ac ace/cobra things like BDA escort/normal escort).... they built a limited number of GTHOs and there are far less body mods than on a tiger shell. However you know how pedantic GTHO guys are about the numbers same on falcon fastback coupes... its not just about an engine swap.

Also.. at this point i have to give huge credit to you.. the car you have would have been reshelled by Paul or Bob 20 times by now.. It would have been much cheaper for you to get a decent alpien donor shell.. you have chosen to reapir your Tigers body despite the difficulty of it all.. and more credit to you.. if more owners were like you this argument would be a moot point..
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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lovejoy
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Post by lovejoy » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:00 pm

A HOT potato - indeed ! but it makes for excellent, and informative reading, the same issue could be said about Corvettes, it's so easy to mix'n'match body parts /styles and create something that wasn't, but as Mal says, it's only the matching numbers that warrant top dollar.
Wait till I get into production of Tiger 111, (designed by Levi Rootes) - which is loooong overdue, and see what reaction that creates .... 8)

An enjoyable, if never-ending discussion, hopefully it will draw some hitherto unknown information out of the woodwork; cheers guys :D
ex 928 PP & OPD 134 D MK1's

Red Race Tiger

First Post

Post by Red Race Tiger » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:14 am

Hello Robert Diehl and welcolme with your first posting.

A somewhat significant image you have chosen to attach to it....another AHP 295B sitting in the paddock at the Silverstone Coys Festival Circa 1994,

Only 23 years after the Original Rootes Rally winner was destroyed in a firery accident at Oulton park and subsequently scrapped.

Strange that, still at least it's Red :oops:

Red Race Tiger

Two Vin's?

Post by Red Race Tiger » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:03 am

Could you imagine taking a car for it's annual MOT with two vin plates? and having to explain that away??

Well erm it's like this....this body is from an Sunbeam Alpine with a 1600cc in line four engine.....Ok Mr Owner but this is a hossing V8 u've got under this bonnet and look's a little bigger than a 1600?

Well yeah that's coz it's from a Sunbeam Tiger iv'e just finished re-bodying into this very shell....

Are they very different then say's the tester??? erm No, not that much say's the imbarrassed owner....

Shall we just keep the Vin off the Tiger then as that's the car i'm testing here with a V8, note an in line four.

Could get a little complicated that idea :?:

I cant see that working somehow.

Mal
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Post by Mal » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:54 am

If a car is rebodied LEGALLY, the rebody is recored by the registration authority of the country. Therefore the VIN would be arranged by them.
Then anyone checking out the cars registration details will automaticly find out it has been rebodied. I havn't looked at exactly what happens here, but if they find out it has been rebodied without being recorded you probably won't get the car registered.

My car now carries the original B9472972 RRO VIN and a new NZ VIN from when I first registered it here, so carrying two vin's is nothing tyhat needs to be explained if everything is done legally
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Mal
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Post by Mal » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:51 am

michael-king wrote:Mal,

.. at this point i have to give huge credit to you.. the car you have would have been reshelled by Paul or Bob 20 times by now.. It would have been much cheaper for you to get a decent alpien donor shell.. you have chosen to reapir your Tigers body despite the difficulty of it all.. and more credit to you.. if more owners were like you this argument would be a moot point..
Thanks Michael. I was a bit lucky i found a panel beater who could do the job so well and who has charged me very fairly.
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gvickery
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Post by gvickery » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:43 pm

Picking up on an earlier question.

As per my last post, there are no records / archives telling us precisely how Rootes processed their orders for Tiger production by Pressed Steel and Jensen Motors. There is strong evidence but nothing you can put your hand on.....unless there is a former employee out there who can enlighten us!!

However, clearly Ryton had a commissioning procedure with both factories and the 'ROTA' docket was at the centre of it. The serial numbered ROTA docket said what was wanted - model type (HRO, LRX, LRO, RRO), paint colour, hard top, special accessories and the like. The 'rota' orders could be for production going to stock for dealer distribution and/or special orders - paint & interior combinations for example. There were several permutations.

PS were given batch orders each one saying how many of what ever was wanted. PS control of the body manufacture was overtly via the JAL and these bodies were produced separately from the Alpine. As said before there were differences in the assembly of bodies - certainly there was no way labour could be organised on an assembly line to jog jobs around e.g...."OK Bill this one needs trim holes drilled on the flanks but skip the next 6 and then do two more"!!

PS bodies were fully painted, hence the JAL being fitted above primer and below body paint. Correlation between JAL numbers and Chassis / VIN numbers was a complete random walk since batches could be mixed and bodies lifted by Jensen folk onto the assembly line in any order PROVIDED it complied with the 'rota'. To control this Jensen fitted the chassis tag right then - the moment a Tiger hit their assembly line. That's another story.

Happy to try and answer any questions.

Graham
STOC Editor

garyv8tiger
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guestbook

Post by garyv8tiger » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:20 pm

david duncanson wrote: Message sorry ive no idea what a sticky is? and paul you do make me laugh! this is a guest book site. i thought you could say anything? well done the club ! just call yourself anything.cant join your happy crowd .gosh some of you should write a book!
from the guestbook ,does anyone have any idea what point he is trying to make . :?:

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:34 pm

No idea Gary,

Although he is no longer a STOC member he is obviously reading everything and keeping tabs on us all, talking tosh....shame really as i'm sure he has a lot to say, he always did from memory.

He too was also once the proud owner of a "Series 5" Mk2 Tiger :lol: :lol:

Anyway moving on,

So people's what have we learned from this topic (If anything)

Did the Tiger derive directly from the humble Alpine?
Is it perfectly acceptable to shell change a rusted Tiger into a rust free Alpine without declaration to a potential buyer?
Should it be the responsibility of the seller to declare his car as a "Reshell" or
Is it the responsibility of the buyer to find out for himself?
And as a potential buyer if satisfied that the "Reshell" has been carried out to an "Exact" standard does it really matter as these car all ALL gaining value anyway?
Should there be a recognised catagory for the "Reshelled" " Rebodied" car's as as we are all aware they are out there....


Another topic for the new year could be the Works Rally Tiger's, what happened to them? Where are they now, Shell's, Rebodies and Jal's etc.

Let me know and i'll start it....


Wishing everyone who has taken part in this topic a very Happy Chrtistmas and the best of new years in 2012

Cheers..... :wink:

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:24 pm

Red Race Tiger wrote:Is it perfectly acceptable to shell change a rusted Tiger into a rust free Alpine without declaration to a potential buyer?
Should it be the responsibility of the seller to declare his car as a "Reshell" or
Is it the responsibility of the buyer to find out for himself?
And as a potential buyer if satisfied that the "Reshell" has been carried out to an "Exact" standard does it really matter as these car all ALL gaining value anyway?
Should there be a recognised catagory for the "Reshelled" " Rebodied" car's as as we are all aware they are out there....
Yes, sure you can re-shell a Tiger, but without declaration to future owners is deceitful and it IS the responsibility of the owner to be truthful about the car otherwise it sounds a bit fraudulent to me (opening yourself up to possible litigation as you knowingly withheld information). Yes the owner still needs to do their homework, but would certainly ease a potential buyer. Any work in re-shelling, you wouldn't want anything but the best workmanship. I don't think there needs to be any 'special' category, just let people know it's been re-shelled to keep the marque alive.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

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gvickery
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Post by gvickery » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:01 pm

Think us Brits, at any rate, should 'put our foot on the ball' for a tic and not forget what the DVLA (law) stipulates - summary here: http://www.sunbeamtiger.co.uk/Galleries ... rebody.pdf An original registration number cannot be retained on a re-shelled vehicle unless it has received a NEW body!

There is no recognised manufacturer of new Tiger bodies aka MGB and the like. Soooh...

If a second hand body shell from a donor vehicle is used to re-body a car it should be signed off by the DVLA and given a 'Q' plate, as "‘Q’ registration numbers have proved to be useful for consumer protection".

It would not surprise members to know that there is not one 'Q' plate registration in the STOC Register of Tiger's. The Tiger community may not be alone in this but we can't run along very far with this 'discussion' with out bringing the dear old DVLA regs into it!!

So here is a further 'starter for 10' to go along with Red Race Tigers. If every newly re-shelled Tiger had to wear a 'Q' plate would it be economic to to do so or would such Tigers become distinguished and find a new financial value? A Tiger saved, Yes, but with 'new fur ' that nobody could mistake.

"Keep On Tigering"
Graham
STOC Editor

65beam
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tiger

Post by 65beam » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:07 pm

WOW!!!
robin used a lot of strong words. declaration,deceitful,responsibility,fraud, litigation( attorney ). he did leave out insurance but it appears that monetary value is very important to him. to me it's all about the fun and enjoyment of being able to drive something different. after all, you don't meet yourself coming and going as you drive down the road.

gtsmrt
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Re: tiger

Post by gtsmrt » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:46 pm

Strong words maybe, I love the marque and I'd drive mine everyday if I could flaws and all. Personally my Tiger has more sentimental value than monetary value and is not for sale in my lifetime. Take it as you wish, but I certainly wouldn't pay the same money for a re-bodied Tiger as an original bodied Tiger. It seems you would, but that's your choice.
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:58 am

Graham you are a tease....

Who would buy a Tiger registered on a "Q" plate?

Everyone in the UK know's that the "Q" stands for not "QUITE" right. :lol:

gtsmrt
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Post by gtsmrt » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:18 am

Red Race Tiger wrote:the "Q" stands for not "QUITE" right. :lol:
:lol:
Robin O'Dell
Tiger MK 1a
ENJOYING THE EXPERIENCE AS DAD WOULD HAVE

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