Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

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garyv8tiger
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Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

Post by garyv8tiger » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:46 pm

The Re-Shelling & Conversions Debate

By popular demand here is a thread for folk to debate the evergreen issues surrounding what constitutes an original Sunbeam Tiger to include views of those that believe there is a difference between an original Tiger and a re-shelled one and those that do not.

This means exploring the pros & cons of re-shelling, whereby the ID and components - mechanical and otherwise - of a rotted out Tiger (or for whatever other reason) are installed into a Alpine body tub.

I have no wish to confine the debate but it is not intended to be include discussion of Alpines that have been modified to V8 spec using a random set of parts where the end result continues to carry an Alpine VIN number, provided it is not described as a Sunbeam Tiger.

It is not intended to be a closed end debate ie. re-shelling is 'right or wrong'. The aim is to understand the beliefs of STOC members and other Tiger owners without any cussing!!

Presently STOC does not embrace the so called T.A.C. authentication programme that is well advanced in the USA and other countries. If you wish the debate to be informed about 'T.A.C. please visit:
http://www.stoa-tigerclub.com/tac/statement.html

Graham
STOC Editor
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Last edited by garyv8tiger on Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:40 pm

Sticky ground here guy's....

If the works re-shell it's called a Tiger, Anyone else it's an Alger?


In my copy of the Sunbeam 260-289 Rootes workshop manual (Section O, Body) page 13 fig 17 it show's how to convert an Alpine inner wing to accomodate the Dynamo with "The Dent" So what was Rootes saying there?

If a Tiger was writen off back in the 60/70's how was it repaired if not with an Alpine body after Crysler pulled the plug in 67 on the series 5 Alpine??

If a 67 Built Mk2 Tiger (Or any Tiger in fact) was in need of a bodyshell in say 1970 are we to assume that a three year old car would be thrown away? as i very much doubt that Rootes or Crysler ever had the thought to order any service bodies from pressed steel in such an event, Tiger's were built almost to order and by any standards very small volumns in cash stapped times.

Of course not,


It's a tabboo subject this re-shelling thing but in my humble opinion it's way overdue for a debate. :idea:


As with this car which is the source of this thread the choice is clear....let it go, break it up for parts on ebay, or reshell it and let it be enjoyed for generation's to come.

Without the Alpine there would be no Tiger....

Mal
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Post by Mal » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:16 am

Here in NZ you can rebody a car legally, but it has to be recorded that the car has been rebodied. This way people know what they are buying.
Sounds great in theory but people can still work their way around it.

If someone had a Tiger that was beyond repair, as this one is, i would rather see it rebodied and survive than be totaly lost.
BUT IT HAS TO BE RECORDED THAT THIS IS A REBODY.

As for those that build a V8 Alpine and try and pass it off for a genuine Tiger :x
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gvickery
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Post by gvickery » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:04 am

Mal. That law applies to the UK as well but is rarely applied and not once (to my knowledge) to a UK conversion.

Red Race Tiger. Not sure your post is best addressed under this topic as it will soon drift out of sight. But I don't disagree with the need to do so.

BTW only one 'works' Tiger was re-bodied during the production period and for that a vanilla production Tiger was stripped out. Another 'works' machine had wings replaced when FIA rules overtook the use of wing vents.

Graham
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garyv8tiger
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Post by garyv8tiger » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:28 pm

Red Race Tiger wrote:Sticky ground here guy's....

If the works re-shell it's called a Tiger, Anyone else it's an Alger?


In my copy of the Sunbeam 260-289 Rootes workshop manual (Section O, Body) page 13 fig 17 it show's how to convert an Alpine inner wing to accomodate the Dynamo with "The Dent" So what was Rootes saying there?

If a Tiger was writen off back in the 60/70's how was it repaired if not with an Alpine body after Crysler pulled the plug in 67 on the series 5 Alpine??

If a 67 Built Mk2 Tiger (Or any Tiger in fact) was in need of a bodyshell in say 1970 are we to assume that a three year old car would be thrown away? as i very much doubt that Rootes or Crysler ever had the thought to order any service bodies from pressed steel in such an event, Tiger's were built almost to order and by any standards very small volumns in cash stapped times.

Of course not,


It's a tabboo subject this re-shelling thing but in my humble opinion it's way overdue for a debate. :idea:


As with this car which is the source of this thread the choice is clear....let it go, break it up for parts on ebay, or reshell it and let it be enjoyed for generation's to come.

Without the Alpine there would be no Tiger....
well said .i think the alger title needs to be changed to reshelled or rebodied .and theres a lot more reshelled tigers out there than people think.as paul says without the alpine there would be no tigers .

wouldnt be surprised to see this relisted next week

H, Sunny 65
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Post by H, Sunny 65 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:45 am

I worry that the only way, this beyond repair vehicle, will end up on the road again. Is if an unsuspecting Tiger owners car disappear's. Only to turn up again with the reg and vin from this rusted out shell.
If a modern, is involved in a smash making it unrepearlable it is now loged as such and can not be put back on the road. Now i for one, would not like to see that happen with any classic, but I do hope the new owner is a member or joins the club. So that maybe we could follow the rebuild.
On the other hand, the new owner may think we are far to nosey, as how much and how is realy only there buisness. As long as it's legitmate.

Red Race Tiger

Constructive debate

Post by Red Race Tiger » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:30 pm

Who's up for a Constructive Debate on "Alger's" "Re-shelling" " Rebodying" then?

It's overdue and i'm happy to start it.... :wink:

black66
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Worst Tiger.

Post by black66 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:25 pm

It is of little doubt that this Tiger will be reshelled into an Alpine . For those that disagree with this practice, what about the brand new body shells available for MGBs ? Does that mean it is no longer an MG ? After all they were not made in the sixties . I see nothing wrong with it , after all another Tiger would disappear otherwise. New bodies are now available for the Mustang and mk one and two Ford Escorts are a possibility .

michael-king
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Re: Worst Tiger.

Post by michael-king » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:24 am

black66 wrote:It is of little doubt that this Tiger will be reshelled into an Alpine . For those that disagree with this practice, what about the brand new body shells available for MGBs ? Does that mean it is no longer an MG ? After all they were not made in the sixties . I see nothing wrong with it , after all another Tiger would disappear otherwise. New bodies are now available for the Mustang and mk one and two Ford Escorts are a possibility .
Probably shouldn't respond here as it will likely start an longer thrread not to do with the original post.. but a few things on that subject.

1. The car will be shelled for sure.. but on a car like this you are not "saving a tiger" you are actually probably destroying a nice alpine to make a V8 sports car... if you were saving a tiger you would use new sheetmetal or donor panels from another dunbeam.. in this situtation you are completely abandoning the unibody and just removing some mechanical components and a transmission tunnel and a couple of parts and putting them in another car.

2. I have no issue with conversions IF they are made known as such. Why do people swicth the ID plates (VIN and JAL) unless they are doing it to try and increase value of the new creation? They are hiding the fact that the car was actully an alpine with a different identity/history and now 45 years later suddenly its a tiger.... if you are doign such a process honestly.. leave the Alpine VIN on it and SAL. If you owned a 1985 JPS BMW and crashed it.. would you go find another 3 series.. drop all the hot parts in it and then swap the ID tags? No.. you might swap parts.. but would not swap the VIN... not to mention its illegal.

3. The new body archument re: MGB's, midgets, comaros and mustangs... sadly for us we dont have this moral question... but i was thinking about this recently in relation to tigers and alpines.

When cars are reshelled with repro shells, the owners tend to make a fuss of it.. as in they hold/increase value due tot he fact its all brand new, no rust/accident or other history.. so its all open and disclosed.

I believe that in many cases the donor car that supplies the driveline and other parts can have its ID transfered to the new shell. Now, chances are that the donor is being wrecked after, and the new shell has at no ponit had another identity, it has no other history.. so its not like a car that existed for X years then suddenly became another.. its new and assumes the old cars identity via transplant.. and I assume the old car is destroyed so that later on you dont suddenly have 2 cars claiming the same heritage.

I do wonder in the abve scenario about cars that for example had serious mechanical failure and had engine/box replaced.. then when reshelled they technically only have the interior/gauges and diff of the original Identity.. m,aybe not even that...

anyway.. long and the short.. there is nothing wrong with algers IF they are disclosed as such, the only real reason someone would change the VIN's is to try and maintain financial vlaue in the resultant car to at some point pass it off as a factory original.

I think ther reason there is so much negativity towards conversions is the fact that people deny that it has happened.. I think they would be far more welcomed if people were more honest in the practice.. if they kept the alpines ID.. what can someone possibly have against it.. except for the alpine guys who would say you have ruined a perfectly good alpine! :P
Michael King
63 Alpine SII - 65 Alpine SIVGT
65 Tiger MKI - 66 Tiger MKIA
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martin172
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Post by martin172 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:27 pm

Start the thread.
I would be interesting to see what people think.

lovejoy
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Post by lovejoy » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:08 pm

Morning, Red Race, I'm up for it ! definitely a new thread, as I am sure it will be a very hot topic (heated :lol: ) once others views are put forward.
Perfect topic for the long, ccold winter evenings over there....
(retires back to hammock with another rum punch.... 8) )

Your move.
ex 928 PP & OPD 134 D MK1's

65beam
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tiger

Post by 65beam » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:50 pm

michael really gets going on the subject of a rebody! i guess the guys that were around when these cars were new have a different attitude about a rebody. some of us still own the cars that we bought in the 60's. if something destroyed my car beyound repair or rust became so terminal i would rebody.i know where there is a rebodied harrington that is going thru a restoration and nobody seems to care. after all, there were a lot less of them built than tigers. and it's not illegal to rebody.there are guys out there that can rebody a tiger and the experts can't tell the difference. and i guess if michael knew what the cost to do it right really is, he might change his attitude after looking at and understanding the owners viewpoint. think about this. pay a lot of money for a basket case tiger, pay a lot of money for a good alpine for the donor car and then pay 40 k us dollars or more to restore it. now you have a rebodied tiger that you have more money in than you could ever sell it for. is there a reason for doing this? probably the reason is that the owner wants a great car, not just an investment! and an owner that would spend the time,money and effort to do it would probably care less about the fact that others have a moral issue with doing a conversion. they have a car that they are proud of. and it is their car.

Red Race Tiger

Post by Red Race Tiger » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:52 pm

Ok Ok i hear you

Let me get my thinking head on and i'll start it, but remmember lets be constructive and no finger pointing or sniping.....coz that's rude :lol:

Tomaselli
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Post by Tomaselli » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:53 pm

Split from another thread (Worst Tiger) with relevant posts from individual members in the discussions over reshelling Tigers/Alpines/Algers.

Always an interesting topic so deserves it's own thread and avoids having to repeat a lot of the already valid points raised by contributors. It will certainly be useful to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject.

If sufficient interest, will keep this thread as a "sticky" that way it will not get lost on this friendly forum.

Keep it clean........ 8)

garyv8tiger
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Post by garyv8tiger » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:47 pm

i,m wondering how my name has started my thread ,looks like the moderators have been playing.i cant spell that well :?

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