TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

[Red Race Tiger]

Regardless of who did what the fact wont alter, No Alpine, No Tiger.

The Tiger derived directly from the Alpine shell with very basic DIY mods. FACT
If a Rusted/Damged Tiger is behond saving Reshell it with the best body you can find.

Since it clearly would no longer be an Alpine, allow it the carry over the Tiger ID with full disclosure.

That way the purists SHOULD be happy? as should everyone else.

Why this topic just seems to go round and round is behond me.


Except i could imagine the purists would be miffed would be when a reshelled car made a REAL Tiger look a little shabby, That's what this whole back biting is all about to be honest, that someone with the ability could quite possibly do the job a whole lot better than Jenson did.

We simply couldn't have that could we

[gtsmrt]

It is beyond me that where the Tiger derives from is continuely being brought up!! That is not what is being debated and was never questioned. The fact that certain documentation regarding the Alpine and Tiger bodies, without doubt leaves a lot of grey areas. While there are similarities which are obvious, they are also different models as Rootes designed them.
Regardless of the build quality, no matter how hard people try to copy Tiger's, a modified Alpine without the authority of the Rootes group will never be a Tiger (declared or not)... FACT!!

[Warren]

Maybe they are scared a Blade Runner will terminate them.

The first step on the slippery slope is when a owner buys a valve cover tag from Sunbeam Specialties cause it looks a little tatty, and hammers out numbers that may or may not be correct.

The idea that our friend spouts here that they can do a better job creating a Porsche Speedster from a VW and that what came first the chicken or the egg is silly. All those tupperware, I mean fiberglass cars are pretty but are rebodied VWs

At the end of the day all we can do as a group is keep track of what has happened who is doing it .

I am quite sure our friend can do very nice work, he should be proud of it and point it out, that is all any of us are really concerned with. If anyone is not doing that they are nothing less than a talented forger, or plastic surgeon passing off saline and silicone as the real thing.


I would like to see TAC'ed cars have a more prominent display rather than a hidden sticker.

[Red Race Tiger]

The last two post's just arn't worth responding to, so i wont.


I've never heard so much complete tosh in my life.


Listen guy's we all own converted Alpines, like it or not, a Tiger is exactly that.


We're not talking about multi million pound Ferrari's or a GT40, it's a Sunbeam Tiger.

But i'm realistic enough to realise and acknoledge where the car came from, and what it's based on, a factory sanctioned 60's shoehorn job. Nothing more than that, but a very super car none the less.

Can i suggest that others do the same, It's a Sunbeam Tiger. Stop being so protective and elitist.


Except that simple fact.

[meadowhog]

If were talking the process, at what point does a door become a Tiger door, or for that matter any panel. I just remembered Oh a door doesnt count, or a bonnet or a boot or a front wing or a rear wing, or sills, or floors, or front valance or rear valance or cruxiform or A posts or in one case? the whole rear end or the rad mount. TAC and both sides of the arguement have agreed that.

So that just about leaves the bulk head, trans tunnel and front wheel arches.

Ergo As long as youve got the paperwork and those 3 parts in one piece youve got a Tiger.

Then when you want to rebuild that Tiger it would be better and more authentic to use Pressed Steel Panels than post production replicas. It would also be better to have those parts already welded together by the same person that would have welded your old Tiger together.

[meadowhog]

Maybe they are scared a Blade Runner will terminate them.

The first step on the slippery slope is when a owner buys a valve cover tag from Sunbeam Specialties cause it looks a little tatty, and hammers out numbers that may or may not be correct.

The idea that our friend spouts here that they can do a better job creating a Porsche Speedster from a VW and that what came first the chicken or the egg is silly. All those tupperware, I mean fiberglass cars are pretty but are rebodied VWs

At the end of the day all we can do as a group is keep track of what has happened who is doing it .

I am quite sure our friend can do very nice work, he should be proud of it and point it out, that is all any of us are really concerned with. If anyone is not doing that they are nothing less than a talented forger, or plastic surgeon passing off saline and silicone as the real thing.


I would like to see TAC'ed cars have a more prominent display rather than a hidden sticker.

What on earth has your comment got to do with accepting declared reshells as a part of a Tiger register and moving this debate forward? Not alot.

I commend you Paul it suites you better not to reply that

[dude234]

Beam,

So many questions, so little time.

"what panels did pressed steel leave off the bodies prior to being shipped to jenson?"

Read my prior postings or read the "Book of Norman" for your answer, or become a TAC inspector.

"who did the fire wall mods? i have seen a few early cars that looked like someone used a large hammer on the fire wall just as was done for the generator."

You were looking at poorly done fake Tigers if you saw hammer marks on the firewall.

"i have been buying parts and repairing sunbeams since the mid 60's. i have seen and heard a lot."

Maybe so, but the question is what have you learned? Apparently not much about a Rootes ordered, Jensen built Sunbeam Tiger.

"i have not heard any answers backed up by documentation. where is the documentation showing there were two lines at pressed steel and where is documentation showing what jenson did?"

Jensen last did work for Rootes in April, 1967 when production of the MK II ended. In 1976 Jensen went out of business. Rootes stopped Tiger production in April 1967. There hasn't been a Sunbeam badged car since the early 1980's. Beam, in the intervening 47 years since Tiger production ended what do think happened to the documentation you seek?


Beam, if you would take the time to read books, visit web sites, talk to Tiger owners you will get answers to the multitude of questions you ask.

[dude234]

Gentlemen, these are the facts and you cannot dispute the facts.


FACT:
This discussion revolves around one issue; can someone in their shed/garage/shop create a genuine Sunbeam Tiger by applying parts on an Alpine chassis. Also, will that creation be regarded by the Tiger community as a legitimate Rootes ordered, Jensen built Sunbeam Tiger. The answer is it will never happen.

FACT:
An individual who creates a Sunbeam Tiger by applying parts to an Alpine shell in their shed/garage/shop and never discloses the origin when sold, has commited fraud for monetary gain.

FACT:
No one cares if one's mind is never changed on this discussion subject. And yes, we legitimate Tiger owners are snobs because it is an exclusive club that is expensive to join. If you want membership then buy a Rootes ordered, Jensen built Sunbeam Tiger. Algers need not apply.

[Red Race Tiger]

Dude,

More tosh i see.....

Read this thread from page 1 to the present, nobody is attempting or suggesting here that reshelling a Tiger should not be declared

IS THAT CLEAR ?????? DECLARED AS BEING RESHELLED.

You talk of mass fraud? where is it there then? You have no argument.

READ WHAT'S BEEN SAID, look back through all these pages BEFORE you come out with all those big guns a blazing there hotshot......

If a Tiger's been declared as a RESHELL then there is no fraud and there's 100% nothing to argue about is there?

Providing it carries all the Jenson Identifiers to a standard it's a Tiger.

Does this thread need an interpreter? the last i heard was that both the U S and OZ both speak the Queens English?

So why on earth isn't it finally sinking in

To me as a U K built vehicle the opinions from abroad mean less than zero frankly.

[65beam]

red race tiger,
dude comes up with some statements about being a tiger owner but he never seems to show up at any sunbeam meets or events and in all my travels around the states no one seems to know who he is or if he really is a tiger owner. this subject came up just last week when a group of sunbeam owners had a get together. ??????????

[dude234]

Red,

I don't argue, I just state facts. Any argument is left up to the ones who have no fact to back up their assertions. Need I say more?


beam,

"in all my travels around the states no one seems to know who he is or if he really is a tiger owner. this subject came up just last week when a group of sunbeam owners had a get together. ??????????"


How thoughfull of you to bring up my name in your discussions. Very soon I'm sure, I will be as well known in Sunbeam circles as you but not for the same reason. Read my prior posting if you need an explanation.


ANNOUNCEMENT: I shall reveal my true identity in a future posting. Some of you may be shocked and amazed!

[gtsmrt]

The last two post's just arn't worth responding to, so i wont.


I've never heard so much complete tosh in my life.


Listen guy's we all own converted Alpines, like it or not, a Tiger is exactly that.


We're not talking about multi million pound Ferrari's or a GT40, it's a Sunbeam Tiger.

But i'm realistic enough to realise and acknoledge where the car came from, and what it's based on, a factory sanctioned 60's shoehorn job. Nothing more than that, but a very super car none the less.

Can i suggest that others do the same, It's a Sunbeam Tiger. Stop being so protective and elitist.


Except that simple fact.

You obviously don't read your own writing before you post. Once again we all know where the Tiger derived from. So in your mind set, a Cobra is still an Ace. I don't know about you Paul, but I own a Tiger that came off the Jensen line. Last time I checked, no Alpine came off that line. I'm sorry, but with people that want to re-badge/ID Alpine's, we have to be protective of the marque.... elitist, not even warm.

[gtsmrt]

Does this thread need an interpreter? the last i heard was that both the U S and OZ both speak the Queens English?

So why on earth isn't it finally sinking in

To me as a U K built vehicle the opinions from abroad mean less than zero frankly.

You just don't seem to learn do you!! This has left a very bad taste, to say the least.

[Mal]

If were talking the process, at what point does a door become a Tiger door, or for that matter any panel. I just remembered Oh a door doesnt count, or a bonnet or a boot or a front wing or a rear wing, or sills, or floors, or front valance or rear valance or cruxiform or A posts or in one case? the whole rear end or the rad mount. TAC and both sides of the arguement have agreed that.

So that just about leaves the bulk head, trans tunnel and front wheel arches.

Ergo As long as youve got the paperwork and those 3 parts in one piece youve got a Tiger.

Then when you want to rebuild that Tiger it would be better and more authentic to use Pressed Steel Panels than post production replicas. It would also be better to have those parts already welded together by the same person that would have welded your old Tiger together.

I realise that one of your main concerns is the cross over from when a resto becomes a rebody.

I talked to my panel man and he feels the core stucture of the car needs to be there. ie Firewall, A pillers . floor pan chassis rails , boot floor, rear guards, front inner guards. Not all have to be complete and some will need to be restored or replaced. From what source is up to the restorer.

A rebuild around a firewall is not a restore. He also raised his eye brows on the cut and weld rear end of the MK11. As for the replacement of a radiator mount, it is a panel which probably replaced commonly through accident.

[Red Race Tiger]

Robin,

I was done with banging heads with you long ago, If you dont like what's being writen simple......dont reply to it.

You're not going to win this debate, neither is dude. Recently at the Alpine spares day you'd been suprised how many there mentioned this thread and the level of agreement with my view that a Tiger is nothing more than a factory sanction converted Alpine.

I can accept that why cant you? So therefore given a set of laid down identifiers a reshelled car would still be a Tiger. Although and here again i state not one originaly assembled by Jenson

AND IT IS DECLARED AS SUCH.......


If that simple statement could be agreed upon then all this childish bickering would cease.