TAC - Tiger/Alpine re-shelling discussion thread.

[michael-king]

race tiger,
michael's views on a restoration or rebody would probably change if he were to actually do a restoration of a car.

Bob Webb,

As i recall you dont do any bodywprk on your cars you just pay someone to do it, a very skilled person, but it aint you.

I have had several friends restore alpines and tigers that the conversion people on this board would not dare attempt to rebuild due to "effort and cost".. I had a friend pour 7 years and the best part of 35K into an alpine body.. ther car probably should have been scrapped as a parts car.. but he was underway and saw it through and it turned out to be a stunning car.. it would never return what it cost.. but then again thats not the point.

By the same token we have all seen Mal in NZ rebuilding his Tiger, all would agree that it would have been cheaper and easier for him to import/find an alpine body and reshell the car.. but Mal wanted a Tiger and wanted to restore it..... again iots not about ease and cost its about wanting to save the car....

If you want to rebody that is your choice.. but its interesting to see the change of tune from so many who originally claim that the TAC supporters are doing it for "value" yet the argument thr rebosy people keep putting up is ease and cost .. it's cheaper to rebody.... seems they are more interested in the best financial outcome for them.

[gtsmrt]

Well written and thought out comments Michael.

[michael-king]

Well written and thought out comments Michael.

after re-reading my post i cant say well written.. got to stop typing posts so fast and hitting done... really should be more careful with the fingers when typing.. or get large keys on the keyboard!

[Red Race Tiger]

C'mon let's all put our cards on the table here, Enough sillyness.

The problem we have here is that we have this hard core of sheep following the heard.....Bhaa Bhaa. Because they beleive/that they HAVE to.

I'm an independent thinker, always have been...

The Tiger derived derectly from the Alpine, No Alpine No Tiger. Period.

Personally i'm not willing to be told what can and cannot be done regardless of whoever thinks they know better on a given subject as they dont.

I haven't AS YET re-shelled a Tiger with an Alpine body but faced with a rotten Tiger i wouldn't have a second thought about doing it. A 100% better car would emerge rather than a festering pine of rust that personally i wouldn't want to put my name too. It wouldn't be done for financial gain, rather for the love of the car.

The people that blat up with the high and mighty stance obviously haven't got a flying idea about exactly what is involved to restore, FULL BODY and Chassis restore any car.


A base 1100cc Escort with the correct type 49 mod's can be re-shelled into an RS 2000, no one bats and eyelid, BMW 3.0 CS's have been used to re-shell CSL's no one bat's an eyelid Original Mk1 Lotus Cortina's are re-shelled, Cooper S's are re-shelled on and on and on.....

Why is it so WRONG to reshell any given number of these car's to save them?

TAC? No thanks.



Mk1 Lotus Cortina's

[meadowhog]

I have had several friends restore alpines and tigers that the conversion people on this board would not dare attempt to rebuild due to "effort and cost".. I had a friend pour 7 years and the best part of 35K into an alpine body.. ther car probably should have been scrapped as a parts car.. but he was underway and saw it through and it turned out to be a stunning car.. it would never return what it cost.. but then again thats not the point.

By the same token we have all seen Mal in NZ rebuilding his Tiger, all would agree that it would have been cheaper and easier for him to import/find an alpine body and reshell the car.. but Mal wanted a Tiger and wanted to restore it..... again iots not about ease and cost its about wanting to save the car....

If you want to rebody that is your choice.. but its interesting to see the change of tune from so many who originally claim that the TAC supporters are doing it for "value" yet the argument thr rebosy people keep putting up is ease and cost .. it's cheaper to rebody.... seems they are more interested in the best financial outcome for them.

You just lost my respect with that. I was hoping for more from you . I cant see anyone changing their tune! and its insulting that you accuse people that love and cherish their cars and have obviously put in way more effort into their cars than you, that they are doing it for 'financial outcome'

I think RRT is right, no one has tried to answer my very specific question so there can only be one conclusion, those that know what their doing and have the love and effort to save cars will try and do it to as original as possible, and those that dont know what their doing will mostly only see it from a financial point of view. Lets not forget thethe ones that will seek the cheapest and fastest way to put a car back on the road and ignore TAC. What I proposed would have solved that.

I believe that if nobody really knows or cant stretch their imagination to agree on what level of restoration using Alpine panels is acceptable, then there will be badly made conversions that will fail TAC. If there was an acceptable point at which a 'reshell' would pass a TAC and/or be accepted then there would be incentive to rebuild rotten cars to that acceptable standard and in everyones eyes, be saved. A lost opportunity to save the Tiger.

Mals car would have been an easy pleasure to restore compaired to one Tiger I did for a client. There no way anybody who knows what their doing would agree to anything except what MAL did, he did exactley the right thing and I doubt it would have been cheaper to rebody.

I guess the real answer to this is that those people who know what their doing agree on what is acceptable and those that dont, stick to their finger pointing opinions and try and find their deceptions.

I cant see I have anything left to add unless theres somebody else that know what their talking about has a constructive comment to add.

[Red Race Tiger]

Sadly i'm affraid your 100% correct.

The main reason there is this Brick Wall is the fear that somehow their "Jenson" built original's will somehow be diluted by the "RE-Shelled" " RE-Bodied" mongrel.

But in reality i truly believe it's the fear that a "Tiger" built by A AN another as a direct rebody could quite possibly be a superior vehicle in term's of build quality and will outlast their's.

And also that it may affect the value's of the real thing? which of course it wouldn't. Quite the opposite.

So therefore to protect the beloved "Jenson" built car, there's no room or appreciation for anything else other than to trash it within TAC. Which is a bit sad.


I'm convinced that given some good will there is some scope in the UK to allow a DIRECTLY re-bodied Tiger ( NOTHING ELSE) a graded catagory. Thus allowing it be a "Tiger" other than this rediculous titled Alger thingy.


As i've said already, unless the clip board armed Good O'l Boys within the TAC learn to chill out a little i think it best they dont book their ticket's to the UK just yet

[Robert Diehl]

I doubt this one will be devaluing a “Jenson built” original.



Bob

[michael-king]

You just lost my respect with that. I was hoping for more from you . I cant see anyone changing their tune! and its insulting that you accuse people that love and cherish their cars and have obviously put in way more effort into their cars than you, that they are doing it for 'financial outcome'

Meadowhog (name?) if you go back and read the thread you will see many of the people who started with the denouncing of the TAC program stated that the people who supported it were in it to increase the value of the car.. and in some peoples case accused those who supported it of only being interested in the cars as an investment... some of these people have been the ones who have also then contended that resurrecting a badly gone car is not financially viable or the cars are to difficult to restore on a sensible scale. Neither of these are good arguments for switching VINs.

As in my PM to you certain people are asking a different set of questions..as in what can/cant be replaced and still make a car through.. well thats a different thread to where this all started.. really the original premis was the acceptablity of getting a far gone tiger (as per the ebay car that started this) and swapping the tunnel, driveline etc into an alpine then switching VINs... this is different to restroring.. its actually transplanting some parts into a complete other car.

As for RRT aand his claims about other makes reshells.. yes it happens with coopers, Lotus cortinas, R2500 cossies etc.. but i know that in those groups unless it is stated there are big issues with it.. same as with Gt350's etc... i think the majority here as reitterated many times dont have an issue with making clones/replicas/copies/algers etc... the issue is why the change of VIN's.

I see your view and RRT's as very different.. as per the manner in which your arguments are put forward...

As a side note i do agree with RRT that if an acceptable process could be found the value of original cars probably will increase.. which is what happes in cases such as Cooper S, lotus cortinas etc.... but thats an aside for me.. switching VIN's his changing identity.. i just dont see the need for it and it just muddies the waters... doa beautiful conversion, make it 100% spot on and leave the alpine VIN and SAL.. present the car as an amazing dtraight never rusted alpine V8... not as an original Tiger that has been restroed.

[gtsmrt]

The problem we have here is that we have this hard core of sheep following the heard.....Bhaa Bhaa. Because they beleive/that they HAVE to.

I'm an independent thinker, always have been...

The Tiger derived derectly from the Alpine, No Alpine No Tiger. Period.

Round and round it goes again. Is it because you can't sway peoples opinions that you have to lower yourself to insults? You make it plainly obvious what your intentions would be should your car become heavily rusted, so why continue pushing your view. Look up the definition of 'save' and to me saving doesn't include replacing, just rescuing or preserving from harm. I think you are mixing it up with the definition of 'replica'.

[Red Race Tiger]

Other than suggesting that some are behaving like sheep in a heard of other sheep.....just going along following the other sheep i dont think iv'e been insulting at all. i'm just trying to encourage thinking outside the narrow minded TAC box. That's all, dont follow be independent.

And unless i've been asleep at what time HAVE the STOC adopted the TAC here in the UK? Where was i when that happened?

And i'm not trying to SWAY anybody.....just trying to put another possibility accross, that's all.

Thankfully my chassis isn't heavily rusted, but if as a result of an accident that resulted in it needing a replacement body it would be a rust free Heritage Alpine i'd choose rather than trying to repair a badly bent OR corroded body. Without a doubt.

A Re-shelled Tiger with an Alpine body carried out properly is not a replica, it's the same thing, a part that can be changed. No different to an engine, door, spark plug or an axle..... It's just a bigger part. But trust me it can be changed, Sure it's not a "JENSON" produced car but who really care's as long as it's declared as such.

IMHO, TAC whitout some flexibility is about as much use as a Chocolate Firegaurd

[JAYANDSHEL]

I have followed this thread daily with much interest and found it refreshing to see so many posts on our forum I am actually getting confused with so much input and it does seem to be going round in circles however I can see two points of view

one from a historic race enthusiast and one from a classic car enthusiast. With a race car the chassis number is everything it it is what defines the cars history it does not matter how engines gearboxes axles or body shells it has had the chassis number is its history. Many E types with race history have been rebuilt using nothing but the chassis tags and are elegible to race in very exclusive races, this is the norm. A famous escort LVX942J is documented in having a reshell after the 1972 RAC rally but still went on to notch up further wins in its race history.
A classic car has to have original features ie factory produced its soul if you like is its body it is what gives the car its caracter.
I think both sides have there place and neither are wrong you just need to decide what is best for you.

Most importantly enjoy your car for what you want from it

Jason
BTW I am a racer one day and show and shinner another

[Robert Diehl]

I have followed this thread daily with much interest and found it refreshing to see so many posts on our forum I am actually getting confused with so much input and it does seem to be going round in circles however I can see two points of view

one from a historic race enthusiast and one from a classic car enthusiast. With a race car the chassis number is everything it it is what defines the cars history it does not matter how engines gearboxes axles or body shells it has had the chassis number is its history. Many E types with race history have been rebuilt using nothing but the chassis tags and are elegible to race in very exclusive races, this is the norm. A famous escort LVX942J is documented in having a reshell after the 1972 RAC rally but still went on to notch up further wins in its race history.
A classic car has to have original features ie factory produced its soul if you like is its body it is what gives the car its caracter.
I think both sides have there place and neither are wrong you just need to decide what is best for you.

Most importantly enjoy your car for what you want from it

Jason
BTW I am a racer one day and show and shinner another

Ah, but whose chassis number…?


Bob

[gtsmrt]

at what time HAVE the STOC adopted the TAC here in the UK?

They may not have adopted the TAC program, but they would have adopted a common sense approach in regards to an original or a fake. I seriously cannot understand your reasoning into what is clearly not a Tiger. If it didn't come from Jensen, there is only one thing it can be... an Alpine!!

[gtsmrt]

BTW I am a racer one day and show and shinner another

I am no racer (wish I were) but in either of your situations Jason, I don't think they differ greatly. In both cases, any previous history would cease with the damaged car and a new history started, but as replicas of the original cars.

[Red Race Tiger]

GTSMRT,

Since when have the STOC adopted a common sense approach? To what exactly??

I have enjoyed this thread, mainly because it has caused people to think? Common sense thinking away from the heard and the blinkerd straight ahead way....from the US and A

NOT ONE person from the UK has objected on this forum to the option of RE-shelling/Re-Bodying NOT ONE, what does that tell you?

Apart from TWO who live on the other side of the globe who keep coming up with the same " UP IN ARM'S" mantra's there are no other OBJECTION'S.....apart from you know who.

So unless someone on here who truley know's what there talking about can explain exactly WHY a Tiger cannot be saved with a rebody with the SAME shell it derived from in the first place then i guess we're done?

And as for that continuing rant about swapping Vin's....that's no more than you would do as an MG owner with a heritage shell. SWAP VIN'S.

Oh and as a another point, what about these MGB owners who re-shell/rebody into MGB V8's?